Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[erik19283]

The following was in answer to worksmart's question about how to pronounce "the".

[Philo Kevetch]

My guess is that worhsmart typed "thee" to indicate the long vowel sound and the for the short vowel sound. Philo :)

[Philo Kevetch]

Sorry...wor"k"smart

I just read the thread and think that mallian didn't quite understand redsets' excellent explanation.

Think about the articles "a" and "an".....an is used when the word begins with a vowel.

Although the spelling is the same ("the").... the pronunciation changes to the long vowel sound when the word begins with a vowel ( for the same reason as explained by redset).

Also, think about the pronunciation of vowels (long/short) in many words containing more than one vowel (next to or near each other).

Vowels are rather "strong" (harsh??) sounds and really clash around the mouth and ear. Just my guess as to the "why" of it. Philo

[erik19283]

Ok, I guess I should have been a little more specific. Let me try again.

Basically, Worksmart was asking why he/she could hear native speakers pronounce the like "the" instead of pronouncing like "thee" when in front of words beginning with vowel sounds. Mallaien's answer was to say that pronouncing the like "thee" was not common anymore and was an old style of English.

So my questions are:
1- Is it true what Mallaien said about the being pronounce like "thee" being part of an old style of English and something that is not commonly used anymore?
2- If so, is it true for most native speakers of English in the world or is it true for those of a specific country or region only?
3- Also, if it is true to most native speakers or even for some areas only, why has it changed that way (i.e. no longer being pronounced "thee" in front of vowel words)?

[CP]

Let me quote myself from another post:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?t=19466

[Begin quote] Sorry, but I cannot agree with Mallaien here. As other recent posts have explored, with nouns beginning in vowels (or a silent "h"), we use "an" instead of "a" and pronounce "the" as "thee" rather than "thuh." The reason is euphony, smooth sound.

We do not say "'thuh' English language," but rather "'thee' English language."

Redset's answer to Worksmart's question is correct, and I think most native speakers of English would agree. [End quote]

Erik: I think that answers your question no. 1.

As for 2, I don't think I've heard English speakers anywhere consistently violate the "thee" rule, so to speak. From time to time, anyone might use the wrong "the" when speaking, of course, but I don't think the "thee" rule has gone out of style anywhere.

For 3, I suppose in some areas people might consistently violate the "thee" rule, but I daresay it is nowhere in the U.K. or the U.S.A., and I cannot guess where it might be, either.

It is possible that it will change in future. Already we have quit using "mine" instead of "my" in front of vowel-initial nouns. Back in Shakespeare's day, I would have said "mine uncle and mine aunt" just as I would have said "an uncle and an aunt," but nowadays I don't. I think that's because the elision between the "y" of "my" is easy -- almost as if to say "my yuncle, my yant" -- but not so for "a."

And not so for the. The abruptness of "thuh" just doesn't lend itself to some words as "thee" does.
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