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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Actually, I brought it up because you recommended someone go to Taiwan to learn Chinese with the commentary "you'll be able to experience both beautiful coastlines as well as scenic mountain landscapes." |
I mentioned it because there are still many people out there who don't know anything about Taiwan. I merely commented on it being a tropical island with mountains and coastlines, not comparing it with anything else. There are plenty of places in the world with beautiful beaches and mountains such as Brazil, Japan, California, etc. but that's irrelevant to this thread. If I were recommending a place to visit for learning Japanese, I'd have said the same thing about Japan. Of course, someone could also counter with "Hawaii also have better weather, beautiful beaches, and breath-taking volcanoes."
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Let me be 100% clear - I love visiting Taiwan. There are several places I would recommend to a tourist very highly. But they are not the same places I would recommend to someone going to Asia to learn Chinese. |
Depends on your purpose. If you're going with the mindset of being just a tourist, of course it's not a good idea. Same thing could be said about going to China or anywhere else. There are tons of places to visit in China, from Huangshan, to Shanghai, to Beijing, to Xian, etc. If you are just a tourist you won't learn much either. Besides, no one said anything about exclusively visiting one place or another. One can study abroad in a university in China and then visit Taiwan to see the similarities and differences, or vice versa. I don't see any reason where one place would be preferred over another if one's determined to learn Chinese.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
But let me tell you why I used the phrase "more impressive." I'll use Toroko Gorge and the Grand Canyon as an example, as these are better known than the coast road north of Hualien in Taiwan and the Highway 1 coastal drive in California. Toroko Gorge is beautiful - the exclamations "wow!" and "Amazing!" came out of my mouth many times when I was there. The Grand Canyon is beautiful as well - but more than beauty, the first time I and many other people see it, we are dumbstruck (speechless) and have to sit down from a dizzy feeling from the unimaginable scale of what we are seeing.
The beautiful coast from Jiufen to Hualien is about 80 miles long, while the Highway 1 coastal drive in California is also beautiful and nearly 300 miles long. I am not saying more is better - I am only giving an explanation for why I used the phrase "more impressive." |
I understand how you came with that opinion now. But we're not comparing which places are better to visit... (at least I'm not...) Besides, it's out of context if we're talking about places to visit to learn Chinese.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Please understand, I love visiting both Taiwan and China. |
Oh, I don't question your intentions. I know you're an open-minded western Daoist. I have nothing against what you've said, just curious about your preference of one place over another (at least that's how I've read it when you used "more impressive" as if to downplay my comment about the landscape of Taiwan - if I misunderstood I apologize). I'm neutral, I only mentioned Taiwan because other posts mentioned universities in China. It wasn�t a recommendation, it was a suggestion. Both places are excellent and they don't have to be exclusive.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| I agree with you completely. If someone was traveling to Asia only to learn Chinese, a cramped dorm at the Beijing Language Institute would server better than a beautiful beach - different places serve different needs. |
Don't know whether you're implicating that China has no beautiful beaches for tourists or Taiwan doesn't have universities to serve foreign students...
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| I know what you mean. It's very unfortunate that the Cultural Revolution(文化大革命) in Mainland China robbed it's own people - around my age and younger - of so very much of their culture, philosophy, and history. |
Well, since you brought that up... doesn't that also give a justifiable reason to visit Taiwan (not exclusively) to experience the similarities and differences? |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| BourneNOIR wrote: |
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Actually, I brought it up because you recommended someone go to Taiwan to learn Chinese with the commentary "you'll be able to experience both beautiful coastlines as well as scenic mountain landscapes." |
I don't see any reason where one place would be preferred over another if one's determined to learn Chinese. ...we're not comparing which places are better to visit... (at least I'm not...) Besides, it's out of context if we're talking about places to visit to learn Chinese. |
I'm pleased to note that you and I agree on this issue.
| BourneNOIR wrote: |
| Oh, I don't question your intentions. I know you're an open-minded western Daoist. I have nothing against what you've said, just curious about your preference of one place over another (at least that's how I've read it when you used "more impressive" as if to downplay my comment about the landscape of Taiwan - if I misunderstood I apologize). |
If you don't question my intentions, then why are you so enthusiasically arguing against my (admittedly irrelevant to Chinese learning) statements, even though we seem to have similar opinions?
You do not know I am "an open-minded western Daoist" - you are bringing it up in an attempt to be patronizing.
My use of the phrase "more impressive" was not meant to downplay your assertions about the beauty of Taiwan's beaches and mountains. I've been to Taiwan and China, and I can attest to the fact that many of the beaches and mountains are quite beautiful in both places. My use of the phrase "more impressive" was a subjective personal opinion about the capacity of one location over another to instill awe in a visitor.
You misunderstood - apology accepted.
| BourneNOIR wrote: |
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| I agree with you completely. If someone was traveling to Asia only to learn Chinese, a cramped dorm at the Beijing Language Institute would server better than a beautiful beach - different places serve different needs. |
Don't know whether you're implicating that China has no beautiful beaches for tourists or Taiwan doesn't have universities to serve foreign students... |
I'm implicating neither one. I'm simply saying you are likely to learn Chinese faster at the Beijing Language Institute (or at a good university in Taiwan for that matter) than on a beach, any beach, anywhere in the world.
| BourneNOIR wrote: |
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| I know what you mean. It's very unfortunate that the Cultural Revolution(文化大革命) in Mainland China robbed it's own people - around my age and younger - of so very much of their culture, philosophy, and history. |
Well, since you brought that up... doesn't that also give a justifiable reason to visit Taiwan (not exclusively) to experience the similarities and differences? |
Well, yes and no. It does - if you are a tourist. But if you're visiting Asia to learn Chinese, I'm sure you can find good Chinese Language programs at Universities in both China and Taiwan regardless of the beauty of the beaches and mountains, and the difference in history and politics over the last century.
To be honest BourneNOIR, I'm not sure what got you all fired up. It seems my use of the phrase "more impressive" has put your knickers in a twist. Relax, take a chill-pill, I did not mean to insult anyone or downplay the aesthetic charm of any land or nation.
Allow me to summarize my assertions in the following points...
1.Points having nothing to do with Chinese Language Learning Programs:
1.a. Taiwan has beautiful beaches and mountains.
1.b. China has beautiful beaches and mountains.
1.c. In my experience, the huge scale of some beaches and mountains in the U.S. creates a higher capacity to induce awe in an objective observer than the beaches and mountains I have seen in Taiwan.
2. Points related to Chinese Language Learning Programs:
2.a. There are good Chinese language learning programs in Taiwan.
2.b. There are good Chinese language learning programs in China.
2.c. There are good Chinese language learning programs in the U.S.
2.d. The aesthetic beauty of beaches and mountains in Taiwan, China, and the U.S. has nothing (or at the best, very little) to do with the quality of their Chinese language learning programs.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| To be honest BourneNOIR, I'm not sure what got you all fired up. It seems my use of the phrase "more impressive" has put your knickers in a twist. Relax, take a chill-pill, I did not mean to insult anyone or downplay the aesthetic charm of any land or nation. |
Nah, I'm not fired up... not sure what made you think that. It's all good. I think you misunderstood me. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the beaches and the mountains, then you wouldn't need to comment "You'll find similar more impressive coastlines and much more impressive mountains in California." I admit, I might've sound a bit on the defensive, but that's only because I misunderstood your comment. Again, thanks for accepting my apologies for the misunderstanding. Yes, mountains and coastlines are irrelevant if one's strictly visiting to learn Chinese. Like I said before, I only mentioned the landscape for people who don't know anything about Taiwan (and it's probably more geared towards tourists than students). I guess I should've commented about language programs in Taiwan instead. Thanks for pointing out my error.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| If you don't question my intentions, then why are you so enthusiasically arguing against my (admittedly irrelevant to Chinese learning) statements, even though we seem to have similar opinions? |
You misunderstood. Sorry to make it sound like I'm arguing, I'm not. I'm not arguing against anything, I'm merely pointing things out. Throughout my posts I keep pointing out that either places were excellent for learning Chinese. I was just curious about your initial comparison:
"Going to China will immerse you to near drowning in Mandarin.
Going to Taiwan is more like a vacation."
But since that was also a misunderstanding on an irrelevant issue, I guess we're both on the same page.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| You do not know I am "an open-minded western Daoist" - you are bringing it up in an attempt to be patronizing. |
Haha. Ok sorry, that was waaay out of context. However, I do know you're a western Daoist because you mentioned it in one of your previous posts and in your profile (sorry if I misread and got that wrong). Yes, it's irrelevant, sorry. I mentioned it not to be patronizing. Like I said I wasn't "enthusiastically arguing", however I am enthusiastic about meeting a western Daoist... and let that slip into my post (it's quite rare here in the US - at least on the east coast).
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Well, yes and no. It does - if you are a tourist. But if you're visiting Asia to learn Chinese, I'm sure you can find good Chinese Language programs at Universities in both China and Taiwan regardless of the beauty of the beaches and mountains, and the difference in history and politics over the last century. |
Not sure why you're so limited in just learning the Chinese language, but yeah, if that's the case you're absolutely right. I'm just thinking on a broader scale where language is part of culture and sometimes when you learn a foreign language you'll eventually pick up its history among other things.
I agree with your summary 100%, and I saw my error - thanks. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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A philosophical Daoist is rare anywhere in the West it seems. It's easy to find a temple around here for Religious Daoism. It's hard to find people that study the philosophy as opposed to practicing the religion. Most Americans think I am strange, most Chinese think I am 怪人 - I think I'm Ok, and that's good enough for me.
Ok now ClarissaMach; You will find that both China and Taiwan are great places to visit for any reason. And either one is a great place to practice your Mandarin skills.
Here's something fun for a change...
豆腐草龟(beancurdturtle) at Chishingtan Beach, Hualian, Taiwan:
豆腐草龟(beancurdturtle) at Tiananmen Square, Beijing, China:
I always shave my beard before I go to Asia. I Don't want to look any more like a 外国人(foreigner) than necessary.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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ClarissaMach
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 644
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks you guys about all these explanations over China and Tawain's beautiful places.
Beancurdturtle, these pictures make me jealous of you!
Now, moving on from this discussion, I'd like to make a few questions over the Chinese language:
1) How does Chinese dictionaries work? I'm mean, when it comes to "romanized" languages, words are ordered by the alphabetical order (a, b, c...). What about Chinese?
2) What about the keyboard? It has a limited number of symbols. How the almost 5,000 symbols of the Chinese language are represented in the keyboard?
3) Is it possible creating neologisms in the Chinese language?
4) How many years does it take a child to learn how to read and write in Chinese?
_________________
Stormy Weather. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
A philosophical Daoist is rare anywhere in the West it seems. It's easy to find a temple around here for Religious Daoism. It's hard to find people that study the philosophy as opposed to practicing the religion. Most Americans think I am strange, most Chinese think I am 怪人 - I think I'm Ok, and that's good enough for me.
Ok now ClarissaMach; You will find that both China and Taiwan are great places to visit for any reason. And either one is a great place to practice your Mandarin skills.
Here's something fun for a change...
I always shave my beard before I go to Asia. I Don't want to look any more like a 外国人(foreigner) than necessary. |
wow!! Turtle!! you are a true travller! you have even been to BeiJing!! when? it was Spring, right? 
and I think you are ok as well. not 怪人  but you still looked like a foreigner in front of the forbidden city 
You looked more handsome without your beard |
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borerborer
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| ClarissaMach wrote: |
Thanks you guys about all these explanations over China and Tawain's beautiful places.
Beancurdturtle, these pictures make me jealous of you!
Now, moving on from this discussion, I'd like to make a few questions over the Chinese language:
1) How does Chinese dictionaries work? I'm mean, when it comes to "romanized" languages, words are ordered by the alphabetical order (a, b, c...). What about Chinese?
2) What about the keyboard? It has a limited number of symbols. How the almost 5,000 symbols of the Chinese language are represented in the keyboard?
3) Is it possible creating neologisms in the Chinese language?
4) How many years does it take a child to learn how to read and write in Chinese? |
Firstly, you should know that all the characters share limited pronunciations. And the pronunciation are figured out by "pinyin". Pinyin use the all the English letters except "V". We have another letter to instead of "V". In our language some letters have different pronunciations from them in English, while some letters have almost the same pronunciations.
So in our dictionaries, pronuciations are ordered by alphabetical order. If you know the pronuciation of a character, you can find it in the dictionary, then you can know its meaning and the words composed by this character.
If you only know how to write the character but not pronunce it. Our dictionary have another system. It's more completed. Maybe others can explain to you or I will do it after thinking about it seriously.
As for keyboard, we can also type the pronunciation and choose the right character.
We can make neologisms by useing characters, which are not used to come forth together. Or even exchange the range of the characters of a word, it can be a new word.
How many years? I don't know others, for me, after 3-yeas study, I can read books. Apparently, I don't know all the characters. But it didn't make difficulties for me on understanding the stories.
For me, Chinese and English are both difficult. |
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ClarissaMach
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 644
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| borerborer wrote: |
| ClarissaMach wrote: |
Thanks you guys about all these explanations over China and Tawain's beautiful places.
Beancurdturtle, these pictures make me jealous of you!
Now, moving on from this discussion, I'd like to make a few questions over the Chinese language:
1) How does Chinese dictionaries work? I'm mean, when it comes to "romanized" languages, words are ordered by the alphabetical order (a, b, c...). What about Chinese?
2) What about the keyboard? It has a limited number of symbols. How the almost 5,000 symbols of the Chinese language are represented in the keyboard?
3) Is it possible creating neologisms in the Chinese language?
4) How many years does it take a child to learn how to read and write in Chinese? |
Firstly, you should know that all the characters share limited pronunciations. And the pronunciation are figured out by "pinyin". Pinyin use the all the English letters except "V". We have another letter to instead of "V". In our language some letters have different pronunciations from them in English, while some letters have almost the same pronunciations.
So in our dictionaries, pronuciations are ordered by alphabetical order. If you know the pronuciation of a character, you can find it in the dictionary, then you can know its meaning and the words composed by this character. |
I used to think that PinYin was something used by foreigners only. Do Chinese themselves use PinYin to read and write?
| borerborer wrote: |
| If you only know how to write the character but not pronunce it. Our dictionary have another system. It's more completed. Maybe others can explain to you or I will do it after thinking about it seriously. |
Ok, I hope someone will explain.
| borerborer wrote: |
| As for keyboard, we can also type the pronunciation and choose the right character. |
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Let me see if I got it straight: you type the pronunciation and the software automatically changes the words into Chinese symbols? For example, you type "wo" and the computer automatically shows the symbol 本人?
| borerborer wrote: |
| How many years? I don't know others, for me, after 3-yeas study, I can read books. Apparently, I don't know all the characters. But it didn't make difficulties for me on understanding the stories. |
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And when did you started to learn how to read? I was alphabetized when I was 6, and since then I was able to read everything (even though I not always could understand the meaning of the words I could read).
| borerborer wrote: |
| For me, Chinese and English are both difficult. |
I totally agree with you! I've been studying English for the past ten years and I still commit lots of mistakes!
_________________
Stormy Weather. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ClarissaMach wrote: |
| borerborer wrote: |
| As for keyboard, we can also type the pronunciation and choose the right character. |
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Let me see if I got it straight: you type the pronunciation and the software automatically changes the words into Chinese symbols? For example, you type "wo" and the computer automatically shows the symbol 本人?
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Let me give you a reference to answer this question:
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/IME_Paper.mspx
If the others are still unanswered when I get home from work, I will see which I can answer with clarity.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Clarissa, borerborer gave a good overview to your questions and beancurdturtle's link is also a good reference (MS's IME is what I use since I stopped using third-party software)
The other system used in the dictionary borerborer mentioned is using the component makeup of the character. Some characters contain radicals while others are radicals themselves. You start by looking up the number of strokes for that character or its radical component. If that character is a radical then you're done. If not, then you go the section with the radical and look up the rest of the strokes needed to complete that character. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dictionary#Graphically_organized_dictionaries
(Note: I just realized that this procedure is for traditional characters, I'm not sure if it's the same for simplified characters - I think it might be)
I think http://www.zhongwen.com is a pretty good site about Chinese characters (I think the characters are rendered in pictures so can be viewed by people without Chinese fonts)
If you type in 'wo', different characters with the same pronunciation but different intonation will show up: 我 臥 窩 渦... etc.
http://www.mandarintools.com/chardict.html is also a good site to look up Chinese characters both simplified and traditional.
Hope this helps. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| BourneNOIR wrote: |
(Note: I just realized that this procedure is for traditional characters, I'm not sure if it's the same for simplified characters - I think it might be)
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Yes, there is also radical/stroke count lookup for simplified characters. This can be helpful if you memorize the radicals, and are looking up written Chinese. For spoken Chinese though, if you don't know the character you can't look it up.
Pinyin is by far the easiest way for Westerners who are not familiar with the characters for each word but know the sound of the word. Most all dictionaries currently published will have a pinyin section. Most electronic dictionaries use pinyin. This is a great C-E E-C dictionary (simplified or traditional) for people with Palm PDA's http://www.pleco.com/ .
BourneNOIR and borerborer both provided good information. I think all of your questions were answered, or you have a reference to find the answer.
Anything we missed?
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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kikicock
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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hi guys! After scan over all the Q&A here, I felt a little dizzy by reading so much English at one time. I am just thinking, how would it be if every English translate into Chinese?! I ever tried it for a little bit. Very funny!
Sometimes I even confused by the two languages, how can they look like the same so much? I use Pinyin when I am typing and sometimes will type an English instead even though I did think I was typing Pinyin!Mess@  |
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borerborer
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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I started my elementary school when i was 7, and maybe when i was nine I can read books with a dictionary. But I am not a representative one.Most children start learning early in a kindergarten, maybe 4,5 or even earlier. I started to learn until I entered the elementary school because I was brought up by my grandparents who are
illiterate. And we lived in a small village, which only have 5 families and located in a mountainous area. Thanks to them I have a memorable childhood.
It's difficult for me to explain in English. A huge shock to me  |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
...you have even been to BeiJing!! when? it was Spring, right?
...but you still looked like a foreigner in front of the forbidden city. |
In this photo I was in Beijing for the Spring Festival in 2002. I wrote a story about it at: 北京 - 阴历：2002年1月3日
On that trip I was in Shenzhen, Wuhan, Beijing, and Hong Kong.
Everyone looks like a foreigner in China, even some Chinese. Haha!
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Turtle, I added some comment on your blog. and I have translated your original verse |
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