Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[hela]

Dear teachers,

Are the following particles adverbs or prepositions ?

Lay OFF take OFF Give BACK
walk OUT run OUT hurry OUT
walk AWAY run AWAY hurry AWAY

The visitor HANG UP his coat. UP = preposition?

She TOOK DOWN her hat from the peg. DOWN = preposition?

He paid off his debts. Can we say �he paid his debts off�?

You won't get off that easy. Is the verb �get off� only intransitive?
Is �off� a preposition or an adverb?

William can't PUT UP WITH his neighbour anymore.
He can�t PUT UP WITH him.
UP + WITH = prepositions? or UP = adverb and WITH = preposition?

Look FORWARD TO seeing you.
FORWARD = adverb? and TO = preposition?

Bill should not GO OUT WITH Monica. OUT + WITH = prepositions?

To RUN AWAY FROM AWAY = adverb? FROM = prepostion?

To GO OFF ON (would you please give me a sentence with this expression?)
OFF + ON = prepositions?

Many thanks,
Hela

[Mary W. Ng]

[hela]

Thank you so much Mary for all your explanations. That's really kind of you.

If I understood you well I should say that that "down" in "He jumped down" is an adverb because it is not related to an object and so "jumped" and "down" are closely related.
Whether "down" in "He jumped down the stairs" is a preposition because it introduces an object.
I'm sure you will give me a better explanation.

My ohter problem is how to differenciate a phrasal verb (formed by a verb + preposition) and a prepositional verb. Would you have a clue that could help me see the difference?

Have a nice day.
Hela

[Mary W. Ng]

Dear Hela,

You got it. Down is an adverb in the first sentence and a preposition in the second. You can use the following test to check your answers.

To test whether a preposition or an adverb follows the verb, use a personal pronoun after the phrasal verb. If the sentence sounds right, it is a preposition. If not, it's an adverb.

Look at these two sentences:
1. The scandal brought down the government.
2. She went down the hill.
3. He came across an old book.
4. He ran across the street.

Replace the noun phrases with the personal pronoun it and you get:
1A. The scandal brought down it. (doesn't sound right; should read "The scandal brought it down"; down = adverb)
2A. She went down it. (sounds right; down = preposition)
3A. He came across it. (sounds right; across = preposition)
4A. He ran across it. (sounds right; across = preposition)

[hela]

Dear Mary,

I've just realized that just as a phrasal verb can be a combination of a verb + preposition OR adverb, a ...... verb (which is not a phrasal verb) can also be followed by a preposition OR adverb. So I shouldn't call it a "prepositional verb". What do we call it then?

eg 1:
a) Charles came into a fortune = phrasal verb (= idiomatic)
b) Charles came into the room = prepositional verb (= the preposition is not part of the verb, it's part of the adverbial, right?)

eg 2:
a) I've been running up debts these days = phrasal verb
b) I run up to get my Dady's wallet = ........ verb (verb + adverb)

Something else, it is said that we can put an object between a verb and an adverb, but not between a verb and a preposition; so would you please explain the following construction?

"I TALKED my mother INTO letting me borrow the car."

Thank you in advance.
Hela

[Mary W. Ng]

[hela]

Good morning Mary,

1) What I wanted to do is separate verbs with an idiomatic meaning (phrasal and prepositional verbs) and verbs with their ordinary meaning followed by a preposition or adverb. But may be this is not the way it should be done because even ordinary verbs are called "phrasal verbs" when followed by an adverb, and "prepositional verbs" when followed by a preposition. Is this correct?

2) Do separable prepositional verbs have a standard meaning and not an idiomatic one? Are they not "unreal" phrasal verbs (= whose meanings are not idiomatic) ?

But what about "to talk X into"? Is a true phrasal verb or not?

Have a nice weekend!

[Anuradha Chepur]

A phrasal verb is an idiom, where the meaning of the whole is not necesarily derived from the meaning of the parts.
eg. broke down doesn't mean literally breaking, but it means "failure of machinery" OR "weep".

The car broke down on the way.
She broke down on hearing the news.

get along with = have a good relation
get across = be understood
get through = pass an exam

A prepositional verb has literal meaning.

I looked up the word in the dictionary. (here it is a phrasal verb look up = scan and read)
I looked up at the sky. (here it is a prepositional verb, literally looking up)

A phrasal verb can be sometimes separated by the object.
A prepositonal verb may be separated too, but it would remain literal and not an idiom.

I would like to explain further, but for want of time right now, I am only giving a link.

[hela]

Dear Anuradha,

So you confirm that what we call "phrasal verbs" (with idiomatic meanings) are verbs that can be followed by either adverbs or prepositions:
a) look UP a word in a dictionary (UP = adverb)
b) look AFTER one's children (AFTER = preposition)
c) come INTO a fortune (INTO = preposition)

And "prepositional verbs" (with literal meanings) are also verbs that can be followed by either adverbs or prepositions:
a) Hold UP your right hand and repeat these words after me. (UP = adverb)
b) He ran UP the hill quickly. (UP = preposition)
c) A lovely tune came INTO my head. (INTO = preposition)

What do you think of "to TALK someone INTO something" is it a phrasal verb or a prepositional verb?

Can a prepostional verb be intransitive?

Thank you very much in advance.
Hela

[buddhaheart]

Hey Hela,

Now that it seems you know how to differentiate between an adverb and preposition after a verb, here�re a few more �off� examples for you to test your knowledge:

1. �A button is OFF his shirt.�
2. �Xmas is only few weeks OFF.�
3. �He lived OFF his friends.�
4. �Call OFF the game!�
5. �We�re OFF on our trip.�

So which is which?

[Mary W. Ng]

[hela]

Dear Mary,

I really appreciate your help, thank you very much for your dedication.

A/ So would you say that "talk someone into something" has an idiomatic meaning?

B/ Would you please give me the meaning of the following sentences?

1. Her voice comes across well. (= is audible? / is nice to hear?)
2. Don't read too much into this deal.
3. She fell for him. (= she fell in love with him ?)
4. I know she got home late, but her mom just went off on her, and now she's grounded for life.

C/ A lovely tune came into my head. (is this an ordinary or idiomatic prepositional verb?)

Hi Bud, here are my answers:

1. �A button is OFF his shirt.� (preposition)
2. �Xmas is only few weeks OFF.� (adverb)
3. �He lived OFF his friends.� (preposition ?)
4. �Call OFF the game!� (adverb)
5. �We�re OFF on our trip.� (adverb)

Gratefully yours,
Hela

[Mary W. Ng]

Hi hela,

Here are my answers. I hope you find them helpful.

[hela]

Good morning Mary,

[Anuradha Chepur]