Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[nawee]

Hello,

Is it "far superior" or "far more superior"?

They have far more superior weapons.

"Far more superior" sounds correct to me, but I can't explain why we need "more" if the word "superior" already implies the idea of being "better"?

Thank you,

Nawee

[Yinglish]

It's a matter of an increasing degree of emphasis. Like this:

David Beckham is better looking than Rowan Atkinson.
David Beckham is more better looking than Rowan Atkinson.
David Beckham is far more better looking than Rowan Atkinson.

[lotus]

Yinglish,

Superb!



--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[CP]

"Superior" means "better" or "higher," depending on the context. You can say "far superior" just as you can say "far better," but you cannot say "more superior" or "more better."

I can't agree with Yinglish's view. What you can say properly is:

David Beckham is better looking than Rowan Atkinson.
David Beckham is more good-looking than Rowan Atkinson.
David Beckham is far better looking than Rowan Atkinson.
David Beckham is much better looking than Rowan Atkinson.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[nawee]

I understand your examples with "better looking" and "far better looking", CP. But why is it that we can say both "far superior" and "far more superior"? Do they mean the same thing or is there a difference in the degree of superiority?

Thank you,

Nawee

[lotus]

Hi Nawee,

Review these sites on degrees of adjectives and the definition of "superior" and you will see that "far more superior" is a very acceptable (also very common) phrase.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adjectives.htm#premodifiers

http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchid=41381&returnFields


You'll notice "superior" can be comparative (better) or superlative (best).

Although very few dictionaries will list superior as a superlative, in common speech and everyday usage, this connotation is quite prevalent.

Report card grade: good, very good, excellent (best)
Report card grade: needs improvement, satisfactory, superior (best)

This dog is of a superior breed.
connotation: This dog is of the best breed.

Name of a company: Superior Kitchenware
connotation: Better kitchenware? No, best kitchenware.

This is superior.
This is best.


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[CP]

[lotus]

Sometimes English can be subjective.

Dialogue you might hear:

Hey Dave, did you see that Benz? It looks really cool.

Well, I don't know John, I think the new BMW looks better.

Come on Dave. You must be blind. The interior of the Benz is far more superior than the interior of the BMW.


To what degree the English in the dialogue might be incorrect is questionable. But the dialogue itself is pretty common.


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[Lorikeet]

Just to play the "Google" game, googling "far superior" gives 1,220,000 hits, and googling "far more superior" gives 92,600 hits. I prefer "far superior" myself.

[lotus]

I would expect that result. The second phrase has a higher degree of modification. Hence, it is used less often.

great grandfather - 1,300,000
great great grandfather - 892,000

I'm sure it's been discussed at length. IMHO, Google is a great tool to explore and get initial indications. But, I would never interpret its results as anything close to being definitive. Just too many variables.


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[CP]

Google, Schmoogle. It is still not correct to say "far more superior" or even "more superior."

Shall we start saying "ain't got no" is good English because of Google?

Google results:

"ain't got no" 1,250,000 hits.

"have no" 225,000,000 hits.

Oh, and "ain't got no" has the higher degree of modification.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[lotus]

As I said... too many variables.

Let's start from the beginning.

The BMW looks good.
The Benz looked better.
But, the Jaguar looked even more better.
We finally decided that the Bentley looked the best.

According to a fairly reliable source, there's nothing wrong with these statements.

Both adverbs and adjectives in their comparative and superlative forms can be accompanied by premodifiers, single words and phrases, that intensify the degree.

* We were a lot more careful this time.
* He works a lot less carefully than the other jeweler in town.
* We like his work so much better.
* You'll get your watch back all the faster.

And sometimes a set phrase, usually an informal noun phrase, is used for this purpose:

* He arrived a whole lot sooner than we expected.
* That's a heck of a lot better

Now, I submit that the two phrases below are approximately the same; the difference only in the degree of "better":

even more better
far more better

Now, replace better with "superior."


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[Lorikeet]

Actually Lotus, I can accept all of your examples except "even more better" and "far more better". I really can't use "more" with "better." I'm not saying someone somewhere doesn't use it, but it isn't something I would feel comfortable teaching students.

And I know what Google can and can't do. I was just indicating the obvious preference in my post.

[lotus]

What we do here is discuss English in its many forms. There is prescriptive and descriptive, connotative and denotative, structural and conversational.

much better
more better
a lot better
far better

These are all very common phrases. It's true that much more better or far more better are not as common as the list above. But, they are not incorrect as the quoted source indicates. Perhaps these phrases are more in line with the descriptive, connotative and conversational part of English.

This is in answer to Nawee's original question:

Is it "far superior" or "far more superior"
They have far more superior weapons.
"Far more superior" sounds correct to me, but I can't explain why we need "more" if the word "superior" already implies the idea of being "better"?

The use of "more" is to enhance or intensify the degree of the adjective "superior."

Suggested alternative sentences:

They have better weapons.
Their weapons are better.
Their weapons are far more better than ours.
Their weapons are far better than what we have.

Their weapons are superior.
Their weapons are far more superior than ours.

Why did we win the war? It was because our weapons were far more superior than theirs. (snobbishly)


My apologies Lorikeet. My terse statement was only meant to express my personal reservations on the usefulness of Google's numerical search results.


It's a shame that the tone of this thread had gotten away from the very funny initial response from Yinglish! In my opinion, there was nothing wrong with his response. I might have used better-looking in the second and third sentences. But, his use of degree of emphasis progression, along with the pictures, was effective and funny!


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[Yinglish]

FYI:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?t=23522