Thank you for your opinion. Anybody else?Richard wrote:Just like tenses: pronouns are not Xui's strong suit.
Subjectivity in usage
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If to hoot....
Hey all!
I've said it in the wrong thread.
Since as a time marker, for me, marks a past moment and implies that the action is still valid at the moment of speaking. I have never, until now, considered since as a marker of completed action. I have not been convinced by the arguements presented that since marks such completion. I may be wrong, but Xui seems to be alone in his disunderstanding of the implied meaning in "since".
peace,
revel.
I've said it in the wrong thread.
Since as a time marker, for me, marks a past moment and implies that the action is still valid at the moment of speaking. I have never, until now, considered since as a marker of completed action. I have not been convinced by the arguements presented that since marks such completion. I may be wrong, but Xui seems to be alone in his disunderstanding of the implied meaning in "since".
peace,
revel.
I thought everyone will support Metal's advanced idea that Since denotes a completion. This is truly alone.
My view of Since is same as those of many grammar sources I have quoted.
My view of Since is same as those of many grammar sources I have quoted.
Last edited by Xui on Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: If to hoot....
The tendency is to give a universal reading (the U-perfect) to sentences containing "since" if the predicate does not modify it in any other way. The U-perfect implies that the event or state still holds at the utterance time. Nevertheless, experiential readings (the E-perfect) also occur, though less frequently. E-perfect readings infer that the event or state does not hold at the time of utterance.revel wrote:...
Since as a time marker, for me, marks a past moment and implies that the action is still valid at the moment of speaking. I have never, until now, considered since as a marker of completed action.
peace,
revel.
U-perfect:
He has worked here since 1987 and now he's about to retire.
E-perfect: He has worked here since 1987; on four occasions in fact.
Saying that, the best way to disambiguate sentences that contain since is to modify the adverb itself:
He has worked here four times at least since 1987.
Then U-perfect is compatible with the sources I quoted:
Ex: Unfinished actions or states: actions or states that began in the past and continue in the present.
e.g. I've been at this school since 1996.
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/ ... ect02.html
Ex: 1. An action or situation that started in the past and continues in the present.
e.g. I have lived in Canada since 1984. (and I still do)
http://www.learn4good.com/languages/evr ... esentp.htm
Ex: A continuing action. The action started in the past and continues in the present. The structure is often combined with words which indicate an unfinished period, such as the last few weeks, for six months, since last year, etc
He has sold furniture for two years. (he still sells furniture)
http://www.hio.ft.hanze.nl/thar/grprp.htm
Ex: Grammar III
For and Since
For and Since are used with the present perfect to talk about something that began in the past and continues to the present.
We use For with the present perfect and lengths of time: ten days, two weeks, a year...
>>We have been in the Canary Islands for ten days.
We use Since with the present perfect and a specific time : January, Monday, 10:00...
>>We have been at this resort since Wednesday.
http://www.parlo.com/en/learn/courses/b ... ar3_en.asp
Ex: Unfinished actions or states: actions or states that began in the past and continue in the present.
e.g. I've been at this school since 1996.
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/ ... ect02.html
Ex: 1. An action or situation that started in the past and continues in the present.
e.g. I have lived in Canada since 1984. (and I still do)
http://www.learn4good.com/languages/evr ... esentp.htm
Ex: A continuing action. The action started in the past and continues in the present. The structure is often combined with words which indicate an unfinished period, such as the last few weeks, for six months, since last year, etc
He has sold furniture for two years. (he still sells furniture)
http://www.hio.ft.hanze.nl/thar/grprp.htm
Ex: Grammar III
For and Since
For and Since are used with the present perfect to talk about something that began in the past and continues to the present.
We use For with the present perfect and lengths of time: ten days, two weeks, a year...
>>We have been in the Canary Islands for ten days.
We use Since with the present perfect and a specific time : January, Monday, 10:00...
>>We have been at this resort since Wednesday.
http://www.parlo.com/en/learn/courses/b ... ar3_en.asp
Xui wrote: Then U-perfect is compatible with the sources I quoted:
It is indeed, and since is compatible with both the U-perfect (now you have a new term, eh?) and the E-perfect.
Examples of adverb phrases where both the U and E readings are possible are:
since, for ---- days
Examples of adverb phrases where both the U reading is obligatory are:
at least since, ever since, for five days now, always
Because of the page http://www.gabrielatos.com/TTA.htm in your initiate message, you have judged that my common sources of Since as pedagogical grammars.
Now you found out a new pdf file, and noticed that my sources are compatible with the new terms:Metal56 wrote:The sources you quote are mainly from pedagogical grammars.
=======================
I don't know now if my sources are still regarded as pedagogical grammars or not?Metal56 wrote:It is indeed, and since is compatible with both the U-perfect (now you have a new term, eh?) and the E-perfect.
========================
At first we were talking about the page http://www.gabrielatos.com/TTA.htm, which is about Proximity and Distance: Tense expresses proximity (Present) or distance (Past), in relation not only to time, but also to possibility and status. Aspect indicates whether the user’s view of an event is external (Perfect), or internal (Progressive).
Because the page claims that Present Perfect only denotes a completion, I tried to disprove it by quoting some sources of Since and For as above, with Present Perfect, denoting an incompletion. However, you judged all my examples as pedagogical grammars.
And then you brought up a pdf file introducing U-perfect and E-perfect:
*U-perfect= the universal perfect
*E-perfect = existential (or experiential) perfect
Of course, I thought you used the new file to fortify Proximity and Distance, explaining how Since expresses a completion. Therefore I suggested to ask readers here if they believe Since only denotes a completion or not. Nobody seemed to agree with this.
Only at this time did you clarify you have changed the preference form Proximity/Distance to U-perfect/E-perfect: "Who has said it does only denote a completion?"
And the new concepts, U-perfect and E-perfect, as you explained, are compatible with my quoted common examples that are incompatible with the Distance theory. In other words, U-perfect and E-perfect have disproved the Distance theory by accepting my examples that you once denigrated as pedagogical.
Because the page claims that Present Perfect only denotes a completion, I tried to disprove it by quoting some sources of Since and For as above, with Present Perfect, denoting an incompletion. However, you judged all my examples as pedagogical grammars.
And then you brought up a pdf file introducing U-perfect and E-perfect:
*U-perfect= the universal perfect
*E-perfect = existential (or experiential) perfect
Of course, I thought you used the new file to fortify Proximity and Distance, explaining how Since expresses a completion. Therefore I suggested to ask readers here if they believe Since only denotes a completion or not. Nobody seemed to agree with this.
Only at this time did you clarify you have changed the preference form Proximity/Distance to U-perfect/E-perfect: "Who has said it does only denote a completion?"
And the new concepts, U-perfect and E-perfect, as you explained, are compatible with my quoted common examples that are incompatible with the Distance theory. In other words, U-perfect and E-perfect have disproved the Distance theory by accepting my examples that you once denigrated as pedagogical.
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What is it with you? Have you got a problem understanding? Can't you use modal auxiliaries?Xui wrote:I thought everyone will support Metal's advanced idea that Since denotes a completion. This is truly alone.
My view of Since is same as those of many grammar sources I have quoted.
<... Metal's advanced idea that Since denotes a completion.>
Metal's advanced idea that Since can denote a completion.
<This is truly alone.>
Read Comrie.
See:
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/Glossary ... tAspec.htm
I am not alone.