Are you a pragmatic failure? ;-)

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:51 am

"Pragmatic failure has more potentially devastating consequences than linguistic failure."

http://www.spanport.ucsb.edu/projects/l ... guage.html

Do you agree?

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:55 pm

To me it depends on culture. Pragmatics seems to transend language.

Some pragmatics are easy, others more difficult. I have never had any difficuly with, "How are you?" Most cultures seem to have a shared understanding that one is not expected to give a detailed answer here except at a doctor.

Notice that pragmatics vary from within a language group and depending on how well you know the person. It is for instance sometimes friendly to say, "How are you, you old *beep*?" but only to the right person. Not every English speaker would say it , either.

Real offence can also be caused by someone actually trying to be polite.

A Japanese person will generally think that "no" is offensive and will avoid using it at all costs usually saying "maybe" instead. If a native English speaker either needs or insists on a definite answer, this can cause extreme offense, especially if the question is repeated and repeatedly answered "maybe".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:18 pm

Andrew Patterson wrote:
Real offence can also be caused by someone actually trying to be polite.

A Japanese person will generally think that "no" is offensive and will avoid using it at all costs usually saying "maybe" instead. If a native English speaker either needs or insists on a definite answer, this can cause extreme offense, especially if the question is repeated and repeatedly answered "maybe".

I agree, and have noticed the resistance from Japanese students to take on the pragmatics of the target culture. So, would you suggest a "when in Rome" approach to pragmatics or should we fear the detractors who might accuse us of cultural imperialism if we suggest such a thing?

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:14 am

There is probably a good case for teaching pragmatics, but I feel that in most text books pragmatics, and other vaguely unusual concerns such as motivational issues, are just flapped at. Most of us also probably give little thought to what is and isn't useful or obvious, and how to best approach the issue, and how to do it in a systematic way.

In that case I think it is possibly better to simply mention the issues and then leave it alone.

Since Japanese people may be learning English in order to sell phones to Chinese people, I would tend to tread lightly when suggesting they adopt a native speakers approach.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:59 pm

There is probably a good case for teaching pragmatics, but I feel that in most text books pragmatics, and other vaguely unusual concerns such as motivational issues, are just flapped at.

I don't know what textbooks you've been reading, but the ones I've used are forever going on about "culture bumps", etc. I'd never even heard this term (although I was aware of the phenomenon) before I started teaching. Reading texts often also challange perceived wisdom.

The type of pragmatics that isn't usually covered is the expected answer to:

"There's no one sitting here, is there?"

Languages seem roughly equally split here:

Yes [there's no one sitting there.]
No [there's no one sitting there.]

"Yes" is the logical response when the seat is unocupied, but English prefers "no".

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:10 pm

Ah, the old "How to answer a negative question/supposition".

I have no problem with the "Aren't you going?" "No (I'm not)" kind of exchange (I call this "Agreeable No"), but how exactly should B answer when A's supposition is wrong (i.e. when B is actually intending to go, despite appearances to the contrary)? Does B say "Yes", or use a "Contrary, irritated No" instead? (The latter seems more natural to me).

The literature I have read addresses "Agreeable No" but is not very clear when it comes to "Being Contrary" (perhaps we are to assume we should just answer "Yes", but then my question would be, what should the prosody of this "Contrary Yes" be like?! "Contrary No" is easy to imagine, but a "Contrary Yes" much less so (to me)).

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:36 pm

The literature I have read addresses ...

You couldn't cite it could you? I hope you've got sth on a web page.

The usual answer to that btw way is "Certainly" then there's no problem.
Again the logical negative answer is yes, I couldn't, but "no" is more usual.

I rarely find students who have trouble with this sort of thing, does anyone know if there are any specific languages where one could expect a problem with this.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:04 pm

Actually, saying "the literature" sounds a bit pretentious doesn't it - I should perhaps have just said "grammar books" or "books about discourse structure". Sorry about that.

Anyway, from what I've read, everyone seems to trot out things we've heard before, if you have a slightly different take or spin on the topic you can be in for a lot of searching and headscratching before you find or reach any conclusive (wider, inclusive?) answers.

I don't have it to hand right now, but one of the ones that I was thinking of (and which didn't, as far as I can recall, answer this point clearly and entirely to my satisfaction) was Amy Tsui's English Conversation (in OUP's Describing English Language Series).*

Don't have any URLs, was kind of hoping you guys would. Am searching now though...

* I mentioned this book on the "Function of rising tag (question)s" thread also; tags are another area where, it seems, everything has already been said.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:45 pm

YES, WE HAVE NO BANANAS

(Frank Silver and Irving Cohn (1923))

There's a fruit store on our street
It's run by a Greek.
And he keeps good things to eat
But you should hear him speak!

When you ask him anything, he never answers "no".
He just "yes"es you to death,
And as he takes your dough, he tells you...

"Yes! We have no bananas
We have no bananas today!!
We have string beans and onions, cabBAges and scallions
And all kinds of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned toMAHto
A Long Island poTAHto, but

Yes! We have no bananas
We have no bananas today!"

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:52 pm

Yes! We have no answer!
What was the question, I pray?
Tum ti tum, do beep di do...

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:15 am

I am vaguely familiar with the song, Juan, although it's not exactly my kind of music. The only bit I really knew was the chorus.

Reading the words, it seems to refer to a Greek person. Am I to assume that you posted it because it accurately reflects Greek L1 interference with regard to the pragmatic use of "yes" and "no".

1923 thats so old that if you were so inclined you could download it without worying about copyright.

It is said that the Greek language hasn't changed very much for thousands of years, so I don't expect this feature existed then but not now, but national and racial stereotypes were not always that accurate in those days either (though on the other hand today artists might shun charactorising L1 interference in a humerous way as "politically incorrect".)

Then again I'm old enough to remember Harry Enfield doing "Stavros" now that charactor definitely used language purporting to be L1 interference that you would never hear from a real Greek person.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:26 am

Asking the Dave's Applied Linguistics Forum gang can have the most "devastating" consequences of all!

Koreans are logical about this, like banana selling Greeks. Are you not going? Yes, I am not going. So they are confused by English.

Who can blame them?. As Duncan points out, English speakers do not know quite how to answer that question, get all in a tizzy, and do not necessarily answer "certainly"!

So try and teach that, pragmatics wizards. This aspect of pragmatics pops up in the natural course of things anyway, so I guess we have all had a stab at teaching it. Maybe that is the best way to deal with pragmatics?

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:39 am

Well it's certainly a very pragmatic way to deal with it.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:51 am

I have no idea whether it's Greek L1 interference. I imagine that in the 20's "Greek" may have been used very loosely indeed, as "Indian" was when I was younger. There would have been at the very least Greeks, two kinds of Cypriots, Albanians, Lebanese, Armenians and Turks, plus mixtures of the above , as well as Greek communities in these places, probably all thought of as Greek.

The Political Correctlessness of the song is positively enlightened alongside Minstrels and worse. But you wouldn't get away with it these days.

The point I was making, if it could even be dignified with having such a noble thing as a "point", is that "Yes, we have no Bananas" must be an answer to "Don't you have any bananas?"

The line has become a by-word for cheery optimism and looking on the bright side of everything. My parents annoyingly said it whenever we had run out of anything and had to "make do".

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:18 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:The point I was making, if it could even be dignified with having such a noble thing as a "point", is that "Yes, we have no Bananas" must be an answer to "Don't you have any bananas?"

Yeah, but what if this banana merchant had crates full of 'em, just in from Armadeira, Brazil, but simply hadn't had time to put any out yet. Would he use a "yes" or a "no" at the beginning of the following answer, and how would he say it?

"___, we have some out back - we're just in the process of fumigating them. They'll be out on the shelves as soon as we know they're safe."