Non-conditional "if"

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:35 pm

A Polish person (not a student) just sent me an email with this sentence:

I don't know if I will survive.

She asked me if it was a conditional. Now this appears to have exactly the same form as the 1st conditional, but you can't recast it as:

*If I will survive, I don't know.

It seems that the outcome here is uncertain, but not based on any given conditions.

I seem to remember reading something about non-conditional uses of "if", but can't remember everything it said.

Indirect questions in which the direct equivelents have no question words either have "if" or "whether" in a non conditional sense, and "I don't know if I will survive," can also be redrafted as, "I don't know whether I will survive," is it the case that "if" can be replaced by "whether" in all non-conditional uses of "if"?

No silly comments about "if" in inverted commas being a non-conditional use of "if", please.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:44 am

I wrote:

"Is it the case that "if" can be replaced by "whether" in all non-conditional uses of "if"?

"

Juan wrote:

I suppose so, without giving it much thought, if you mean in indirect Y/N questions.

I actually know for a fact, Juan, that "if" can always be replaced by "whether" when the direct equivelent lacks a question word.

Not in the case of "on Sunday if not on Saturday" . Though that's some kind of ellipsis of "(It's) on Sunday if (it's) not on Saturday" .

Despite lacking verbs, this is still a conditional all conditionals have the form:

x if (not) y (not)
if (not) y, x (not)

with or without verbs.

I already knew about verbless conditionals, but it's interesting to bring them up. It's the sort of thing this thread might go on to discuss.

What about "as if"?

Nice one, Juan, that definitely can be non-conditional.

"It was as if he didn't know what to say"

"As if what they had already done wasn't enough, they tarred and feathered him too."

Can be recast as:
They tarred and feathered him too as if what they had already done wasn't enough.

Although there is no conditional outcome. Can anyone find a use of "as if" that is conditional?

Anyone like to comment on the original sentence?

Food for thought I'd say.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:35 am

The first example sentence was:

I don't know if I will survive.

This has exactly the same form as the 1st conditional, but isn't a conditional.

I can only think of one other case that has conditional form without "as":

I can't help it if...

Can anyone think of any other examples of non-conditional "if"?
Can anyone think of conditional uses of "as if"

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:40 am

How confusing for everybody, that you refer to my post which now has disappeared. It was late and I had far too many windows open so I must have deleted the only post meaning to paste it back in. Or something. Sorry. I'm glad it's survived in the form of your quotes.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:14 pm

Actually, I'm not sure you can say that I don't know if I will survive has exactly the same form as the "first conditional" as the if-clause in this example is in the wrong verb form.

The grammar books say If + present simple, then will = "first conditional". Here you have present simple then if + will. It's not the same structure.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:51 pm

Maybe it would help to think of the entire original sentence as more "expressing concern about future ability" than a "condition" (even if "likelihood" is involved in both)?

I don't know if I will/can survive this.
Will/can I survive (this)? I don't know.

I guess I don't get too excited by (fixated on) descriptive labels (unless they are clear and accurate regarding the communicative function of the phrases they subsume).

Just some random thoughts.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:53 pm

lolwhites wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure you can say that I don't know if I will survive has exactly the same form as the "first conditional" as the if-clause in this example is in the wrong verb form.

The grammar books say If + present simple, then will = "first conditional". Here you have present simple then if + will. It's not the same structure.

Oh, I see what you mean, but perhaps it would be easier if it was compared to the other form of the 1st conditional:

The 1st conditional is either:
a) If+present tense, subj+will+bare infinitive; or
b) subj+will+bare infinitive if present tense,

and this is:
c) present tense+if subj+will+bare infinitive.

I take it back. This is not the same as the first conditional. Whoops

Does it have a name?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:27 pm

Not sure what to call it but it seems to me to have far more in common with indirect questions. It certainly doesn't express a condition.

Consider:
He asked what to say
He asked if he would survive
I don't know what to say
I don't know if I will survive

They seem pretty similar to me...

I will survive
as long as i know how to love
I know I'll stay alive
I've got all my life to live
I've got all my love to give
and I'll survive
I will survive

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:01 pm

I will survive
as long as i know how to love
I know I'll stay alive
I've got all my life to live
I've got all my love to give
and I'll survive
I will survive

...and lolwhites changes his name to Gloria Gaynor.

But seriously, yes, I can see the relationship to indirect questions.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:17 am

This is just a problem of terminology, isn't it?

Indirect question,

Embedded question,

Question in a question,

The last, clearly, is "Could you tell me where you are from?"

But in the first two cases doesn't the word "question" refer to the "inner" question and not necessarily mean that the sentence is itself a question?

In other words, "I don't know what I'll do" or "I wonder what the time is" or "I don't mind what we call it" are indirect questions, but not themselves direct questions.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:52 pm

This is just a problem of terminology, isn't it?
Indirect question,
Embedded question,
Question in a question

I've looked into this and it seems that the answer is that, "I don't know if I will survive" is an embedded question. The other two imply that an actual question is asked, although they are both technically types of embedded question.

Maybe the term "non-interogative embedded question" would describe the sentence best, although I just made that up myself.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:44 pm

Yes, Andrew, "if I will survive" is an embedded question which can only follow a negative statement.

I then set off quite confidently to say the following:

Negatives are "not know", "be uncertain", "be doubtful" ....

Then I found "be unlikely", "not be on the cards" (and there must be others) which can't be followed by if-clause

And then I came across "be up in the air", "be in the lap of the gods" which are not negative and can be followed by an if-clause.

So Heeeeelp!!!

Harzer

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:16 am

Harzer wrote:Then I found "be unlikely", "not be on the cards" (and there must be others) which can't be followed by if-clause

Not exactly a COBUILD-quality definition at the following link, but still...(nice spinner thingy):

http://www.harcourtschool.com/glossary/ ... kely3.html

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:52 am

"if I will survive" is an embedded question which can only follow a negative statement."

First of all, nice other examples that follow, but surely these are statements of uncertainty rather than negative. They may be negative but they don't have to be. The key idea here is that there is uncertainty.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:44 am

"Yes, Andrew, "if I will survive" is an embedded question which can only follow a negative statement."

"The key idea is that there's uncertainty"

"I wonder if I will survive?" Certainly not negative. A sort of detached uncertainty?

Anyway, I can't see any pattern that distinguishes the impersonal "if" from the "that" either .

It's doubtful if........ It's unlikely that............

There's also "as to if"

There is some doubt as to if we'll ever get to the bottom of this.