Applied Linguistics: MA programs online?

<b>Forum for the discussion of Applied Linguistics </b>

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fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:51 pm

Hmm. I was more going by Macquarie University's publications, and, as I say, some searches that I did months ago and to be honest can't really remember much of now. I didn't go rushing off to check out UNE uni's distance programmes (or anyone else's) before I replied to Julia (I often drag my feet when it comes to doing net searches, don't really know why), I'm just taking her word for it when she says it was hard work (she does, after all, say she has an MEd already).

That is, even if what you say about it is true, Sunpower, that doesn't mean that Julia didn't put in a lot of late nights and break a real sweat in trying to reach some conclusions, nor does it mean that everything published as research is of high quality or really adding anything to the body of "knowledge" generally. Anyway, there are universities in the UK that explicitly seperate research programs from "taught courses" (again, I'd need to check which ones exactly), so even if you did attend classes and wrote a quasi-dissertation, it wouldn't make much difference beyond the immediate world of you and your tutors.

I guess that ideally, we would all do residential courses, learn and discuss a lot, have a chance to do a bit of research, write a conclusive "dissertation" even if it wasn't quite going to change the world, and generally have a good time and make some useful academic contacts...but if, at the end of it, we are just going to be more or less just teaching English conversation (and not even stylistics) in some Japanese or Korean university (for example), what ultimately is the point of it? To broaden just our minds (and empty our wallets)?

Let's not delude ourselves here, most qualifications are just to give employers that extra little bit of confidence in you prior to hiring, and they undoubtedly make a lot of money for the institutions offering them, even when their quality and therefore their value for money is reasonably high. We are "buying" academic friendship and temporary endorsement, but we are not really going to become "respected" academics ourselves through doing this kind of course (that is, I suspect that most academics excelled in their area right from undergraduate level, and have never had to leave academia to scratch a living in the "real" world - not that e.g. securing funding for research isn't hard work!).

I presume(d) that Julia and others would have the intelligence to not include on their CV the jobs they were doing whilst completing their distance degree, if lying about its "residential, taught, ?research" nature was indeed what they'd decide they'd need to do to get a job, and I don't think many employers spend time perusing every page of your passport if you present them with the necessary pages (make photocopies to give to them!) and make it clear you don't want to let it out of your sight. :wink:

JuliaM
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Post by JuliaM » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:57 pm

"I see some obvious problems with these statements.

If I were interviewing you, I'd want to know how you liked living in Australia and what your classes were like - your favourite class, etc."


I am Australian, and I could easily answer your questions. Also, I have never had anyone ask such trivial questions in an interview. I have been asked about my opinions on various theories, how I handle certain situations etc. NEVER what my favourite class was!!!

"Futhermore, the M.A. Applied Linguistics degrees coming out of Australia are pretty damn easy and would be classified more in line with being a 'certificate' level course in a country, say like Canada or even America where M.A. degrees require not only course work but a thesis and defense of an original piece of research."

Do you have any empirical evidence to support these statements? Canada is now moving to the coursework MA, and it is rapidly gaining popularity, and status. And I must respectfully disagree with you about them being "certificates". They are very rigorous, and require very high levels of accomplishment. Canada is also offering some very good online courses that are recognised by TESL Canada.

"For example, there is no thesis requirment for these Australian M.A. courses. A post graduate degree is designed to go beyond course work and to engage in research and to contribute to the body of literature within the field of your study."
"Some programs are a joke! - Monash, for example, and I think your school UNE, require the completion of only 6 courses to graduate with an M.A. degree. WOW!!"

No, actually 8, and there is provision to do a research project if you want to. Also, many of the "assignments" within the course work, are in fact, research. For instance, I have already completed a detailed action research and written it up, done a comprehensive survey and written up the results, evaluated another teacher/teaching approach, and researched a couple of controversial topics within the current SLA theory.

"That's less than 1 year to complete an Masters Degree!!! - You could do that in two 4 month semesters - 8 months for a Master Degree if you go full time? "

You'd be working pretty hard, so don't count on a social life.

"Australian schools are handing these M.A. Applied Linguistics / TESOL degrees out like candy and, in my opinion, doing a great diservice to the value of an M.A. degree - They are 'devaluing' the M.A. degree."

Yes, it is your opinion, and I strongly disagree with it. Australian universities have a long history of excellence in distance education (USQ has won the world award twice), and it is largely because of the size of the continent and the small population. To make education available to everyone, distance education was developed more than 20 years ago, so that people from far-flung regions were not disadvantaged (there's not a university or even college in every town as there is in North America).

"If anything, I would argue that there may be some problems in the future with seeing the Australian M.A. Applied Linguistics degrees as being legitimate. So, I disagree with you in your saying that Australian M.A. programs are earning a great reputation."

Again, have you experienced any of these programs?

"Not to mention, Auastralian M.A. Applied Linguistics / TESOL programs do not require any supervised or observed teaching components to the degree."

Again, you're wrong. The MA in Applied Linguistics is not especially for teachers, and if you are doing a TESL course, then you ARE required to find a supervisor from an ESL school you can attend and have them observe your prac teaching (20 hours of it, after which they write a report directly to your uni supervisor and submit a 2 hour video-taped session as well for evaluation).
I really think you need to open your mind a little. Distance education can be very legitimate (though I admit, not always; it depends on the provider). If you don't have any first hand knowledge of distance programs, either in Australia or in Canada/US, then I don't really think you're qualified to make such sweeping statements. It smacks of intellectual elitism - a nasty thing.

Sunpower
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Post by Sunpower » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:26 pm

Well, I really do disagree with you Julia.

8 courses is a certificate program at a community college in Canada.
That's 2 semesters or 1 academic year.

Which schools are these reputable distance / on-line degrees offered at in Canada?

8 months to do a Masters degree is a sham.

Australian universities are pretty much becomin "Degree Mills."

Julia Wrote:
I have never had anyone ask such trivial questions in an interview. I have been asked about my opinions on various theories, how I handle certain situations etc. NEVER what my favourite class was!!!
I can understand what you're saying. I guess it would depend on the country you are hoping to work in and the person interviewing you.

Firstly, in order to obtain a work permit you would have to produce your passport (I know you're Australian). The level of government (Police, Immigration or the Ministry of Education / Higher Education) are able to verify whether you obtained a student visa to study in another country.

Some countries like Taiwan or Middle East nations would also have their embassies or Department of Trade contact your school and verify your attendance and mode of study. I doubt universities will lie about this.

Then transcripts and degrees must be notarized and verified by both the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the foreign government processing your work visa.

This may not be the case for all countries but many of them will check and verify your academic history.

As an interviewer and you as a recent graduate from your M.A. Applied Linguistics program, I would ask you which courses you liked best - phonology, SLA (your own theory), discourse analyis, Syllabus design, etc - and why you liked those courses.

JuliaM Wrote:
Do you have any empirical evidence to support these statements?
My comments are opinon based on personal experience. This isn't a scientific inquiry or court of law - it's BB Board. LOL!!!

JuliaM Wrote:
Australian universities have a long history of excellence in distance education (USQ has won the world award twice), and it is largely because of the size of the continent and the small population.
USQ is one of the lowest ranking schools in Australia - I wouldn't be highlighting the achievements of a school like USQ! This school is a money making machine, allowing Asian students to come and get a "Master" degree without having to pass through the rigours of earning a grad degree in the U.S. - GRE, TEFOL and Thesis and Defense.

USQ operates at the bottom end of academia. Bad example.

Julia Wrote:
Again, you're wrong. The MA in Applied Linguistics is not especially for teachers, and if you are doing a TESL course, then you ARE required to find a supervisor from an ESL school you can attend and have them observe your prac teaching (20 hours of it, after which they write a report directly to your uni supervisor and submit a 2 hour video-taped session as well for evaluation).
Most Australian universities do not provide / require an observed teaching component to their TESOL degrees.

Yours might but is this mandatory?

I believe that if students want a supervised teaching component added to their program that they must request it and that it is not taken for credit toward the degree.

I beleive USQ offers this in this non-credit, non-compulsory format.

Bottom line, Julia, Australian grad degrees don't measure up to American and Canadian grad degrees.

They are research-based degrees.

Australian M.A. degrees in the future may experience a biased against them for lack of quality and academic rigour.

I'm glad we can 'respectfully' disagree with each other. :D

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:56 pm

Hmm I'm interested in this "lying" lark (about distance degrees having been taught/residential/?tougher), as far as I can remember the only requirement that there is to get a work visa issued or renewed (for coming to Japan) is that you have a first degree along with transcript.

Of course, there may be differing types or work visa ("EFL drone" vs. "Brainy academic university lecturer type 101", and their requirements may vary, but I'd've thought it would've been up to the individual employer rather than immigration to check out the validity of what you choose to say, and if the employer reckons you can do the job, wouldn't that be enough for the visa-issuing authorities?

Ah, but I just thought of another problem: many universities (in Japan at least) ask for evidence of published research, if not previous experience teaching at university level, so to work for them you really would need to have done a "super" (and presumably non-distance) degree, stayed on in the field at that level for a few years etc - I can't think of how else you'd get around them.

Which kind of suggests that for jobs that are less stringent qualifications-wise, what difference would it make in being truthful and saying you'd done it by distance (or is the sole purpose in doing an MA purely to get a good job in a university? 8) ).

JuliaM
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Post by JuliaM » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:01 pm

Sunpower wrote:Well, I really do disagree with you Julia.
"Which schools are these reputable distance / on-line degrees offered at in Canada?"

University of Saskatchewan, University of Regina - 2 that I'm sure of, there's probably more.

"Australian universities are pretty much becomin "Degree Mills.""

And others haven't? Any university relies on international student's fees, and many universities the world over have been accused of this very thing.

"USQ is one of the lowest ranking schools in Australia - I wouldn't be highlighting the achievements of a school like USQ! This school is a money making machine, allowing Asian students to come and get a "Master" degree without having to pass through the rigours of earning a grad degree in the U.S. - GRE, TEFOL and Thesis and Defense. USQ operates at the bottom end of academia. Bad example."

Where do you get this information from? I did see one website that had USQ at the bottom for easiness of getting into an accounting course, but I hardly think that taints the whole university. Actually, Australia had 35% of it's universities in the top 200 world rankings of good universities for 2004. That's not too shabby.

"Most Australian universities do not provide / require an observed teaching component to their TESOL degrees. Yours might but is this mandatory?"

Yes.

"I believe that if students want a supervised teaching component added to their program that they must request it and that it is not taken for credit toward the degree. I beleive USQ offers this in this non-credit, non-compulsory format."

Actually, it was at USQ that this was a requirement. Failure to be able to do a practicum meant not being able to complete the course. And it is definitely for credit.

"Bottom line, Julia, Australian grad degrees don't measure up to American and Canadian grad degrees. They are research-based degrees. "

Bottom, bottom line is, yes they do. The Australian system is different to the North American one, not inferior. To be eligible to enter many higher degrees in Australia, you must have done some research. That was how I was able to do my MEd - I had written a thesis for a previous post-graduate degree (MLitt). Also, PhDs in Australia, unlike North American ones, are all research. In Canada and the US, the research component is about equal to the course work. Australian PhDs don't have any course work component at all.

"Australian M.A. degrees in the future may experience a biased against them for lack of quality and academic rigour."

It hasn't been my experience so far. My degrees have been highly regarded.

I'm glad we can 'respectfully' disagree with each other. :D
Ditto.

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:16 am

One has to point out that all the superior British types one may meet generally only took one year to do an MA, resedential or not.

I think the lecturers on my MA course were trying desperately to hint that you shouldn't try and do world shaking research for your dissertation - that is now really only for Phd people.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:22 am

Wow, only a year (even by distance learning?!), and no research, woody? Then there's hope for me yet, it would seem! :lol:

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:46 am

Yes, I suppose I should say especially if resedential. The distance course would have taken three years.

So chew that over, Sunpower!

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:54 am

woodcutter wrote:Yes, I suppose I should say especially if resedential. The distance course would have taken three years.

So chew that over, Sunpower!
Which kind of leads back to my (me me me!!!) original question:
"Is taking slightly more time to go about absorbing things considered bad, then?"

If you think "Yes", why? (for heaven's sake! Ever heard of "reflection"?!).

Sunpower
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Post by Sunpower » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:38 am

JuliaM Wrote:
JuliaM wrote: Actually, it was at USQ that this was a requirement. Failure to be able to do a practicum meant not being able to complete the course. And it is definitely for credit.
Julia, the practicum is NOT definitely for credit and doing a practicum is NOT required to pass the M.A. TESOL / Applied Linguistics program at USQ: http://www.usq.edu.au/handbook/2004/MATE.html
Practical Experience

There is an optional practicum consisting of 20 hours teaching and/or observing lessons at an institution. Of the 20 hours, six hours are observed and evaluated by a supervising teacher.

This option provides an opportunity for those students who need this practical experience for employment purposes to undertake formally such an experience.
Julia, USQ is basically a community college and about 15 years or so ago went by hte name of the Darling Downs Institute of Education . This community college changed to university status (USQ) in either the late '80s or early '90s.

To say that USQ is a leading well-respected university the world over is absolutely ludicrous!.

In Australia, universities are graded in six categories of excellence.

To put things into perspective, University of Queensland would be ranked as a 1, USQ is a 6.

USQ has a good reputation for distance education, but distance education is poorly regarded in academia.

I just did some research the other day on the internet to check out M.A. Applied Linguistics / TESOL programs.

Monash University and Syndey University require only 6 courses to complete an M.A. degree.

That would take me 8 months at only 3 courses a semester.

Don't you think something's wrong there?

In Canada and America that is nothing but a 'Certificate' level program.

An M.A. degree is a research-based degree where the candidate identifies a research problem and then engages in an orginal piece of research - not merely going to the library and summarizing what others have written about SLA! This is what makes the M.A. degree distinct from the Bachelor's Degree.

Overall, the quality and standard of these course-work, distance M.A. degrees offered by Australian univresities is not adequate. And, as a result, I am guessing that in the future more and more universities, employers, teachers and governments are going to question the integrity of the Australian M.A. degree.

In fact, even Australian universities realize that their course-work, distance education M.A. degrees are not as rigorour or academically accepted and respected as the traditional research-based Master's degree.

Even the students in these two programs are treated differently by the schools - ie. research-based scholars get a desk with office amenities and are eligible for scholarships and grants.

In my opinon, if Australian universities want to make money by reducing the standard and integrity of the Master's Degree, then they should stamp it on the degree certificate "Master's of Applied Linguistics - Coursework."

The two degrees are not equal, in my view and never will be.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:54 am

I don't mind being ignored here (it's kind of fun to watch a developing fight from the sidelines), so I won't take offence if my next question also fails to garner any response:

Research is obviously important. If you could undertake some in Applied Linguistics, what area (or better yet, specific topic) would you want to investigate? Let's have your research proposals!

(If you've already done an MA that involved research, feel free to tell us about what you did).

8)

JuliaM
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Post by JuliaM » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:39 pm

Hi Fluffyhamster (cute name)
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to ignore you, it's just that I felt Sunpower's comments really couldn't go unchallenged, but I'll leave it there now. I can see we will never reach a consensus. :? Research - well, for the MA Applied Linguistics (despite what SP says about distance courses being "certificates" and, for the record, that still makes me see red :evil: , I've worked VERY hard on mine - but I digress) I have done some research. I examined error correction in SL writing. I did classroom research, collecting samples of student's writing and analysing the errors. I also examined past research into the topic and found that many studies have found that nothing much is effective, so I went at it from the student's point of view. I asked what did they "feel" was effective and why? Basically, my findings were that students overwhelmingly prefer teacher feedback and despite previous research, students believe that error correction on their writing helps them to advance in their writing ability. So, as I said, I viewed it from the student's point of view, and concluded that error correction affirms a student's purpose in their writing, and if they believe it is doing them good, it probably is. Of course, this really needs much deeper research, but it's a beginning. I also presented these findings in a paper at the TESL Ontario conference last week, and it was quite well received.
Oh, and yes. The MA will have taken me 3 years by the time I'm finished. As you say, taking a little more time does allow for some serious reflection and is very valuable. I am not a fan of hurrying through courses just so that the letters can appear after my name. I really like to know that I have earned them by absorbing the material and thinking deeply about it and then adding my own thoughts.
fluffyhamster wrote:I don't mind being ignored here (it's kind of fun to watch a developing fight from the sidelines), so I won't take offence if my next question also fails to garner any response:

Research is obviously important. If you could undertake some in Applied Linguistics, what area (or better yet, specific topic) would you want to investigate? Let's have your research proposals!

(If you've already done an MA that involved research, feel free to tell us about what you did).

8)

JuliaM
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Canada

Post by JuliaM » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:56 pm

"Julia, USQ is basically a community college and about 15 years or so ago went by hte name of the Darling Downs Institute of Education . This community college changed to university status (USQ) in either the late '80s or early '90s. "

Actually, if you know anything about Australia, you will know that this changeover happened to all Institutes of Advanced Education, and Teacher's Colleges. They were all either closed or amalgated with universities. They usually served as an annex of another established university until they were able to gain their own charter. So, this is by no means a black mark against it. Others in this category were Sydney Teacher's College is now part of Sydney University, University of Western Sydney was Kuringai Institute of Advanced Education, Sydney University of Technology was Sydney Institute of Technology, Riverina Teacher's College is now Charles Sturt University, and that's only a few.

"To say that USQ is a leading well-respected university the world over is absolutely ludicrous!. In Australia, universities are graded in six categories of excellence. To put things into perspective, University of Queensland would be ranked as a 1, USQ is a 6. "

I still want to know where you get your information about USQ being a second-rate university. Show me some evidence!

"USQ has a good reputation for distance education, but distance education is poorly regarded in academia. "

Show me evidence of this, too!

For the Record -
University of Sydney
Master of Arts
Master of Arts Ancient World Studies
Master of Arts Master of Development Studies
Master of Liberal Studies
Master of Media Practice
Master of Medical Humanities
Master of Professional Communication
Master of Strategic Public Relations
8 units of study (48 credit points)
1 year full time 2–4 years part time


Master of Letters
12 units of study (72 credit points)
1.5 years full time
3–6 years part time


University of Queensland
Duration 1.5 year(s) full-time (or part-time equivalent)
Faculty Arts
Units 24

Sunpower
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Post by Sunpower » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:51 pm

For the Record
Monash University - Master of Applied Linguistics
6 courses for Master of Applied Linguistics.
3 courses a semester.
:shock:

There are countries which do not recognize Australian M.A. degrees obtained at distance - Taiwan, United Arab Emirates.

So, it's impossible to obtain a work permit and resident visa using one of these Australian M.A. degrees.

Furthermore, there are schools in other countries such as Korea and Japan that are concerned about the quality of the Australian M.A. programs and the quality of the students graduating from these programs.

So, if Australian universities want to deliver 6 or 8 course work, non-research based Applied Linguistics progam, they should be called a
Certificate of Applied Linguistics, not an Master Degree.

For instance, in Canada, community colleges offer certificate programs in Business Administration, Criminal Justice Studies, etc. These programs consist of 8 courses, or 4 courses per semester.

Shockingly, some Australian universities do not even require this much academic work to obtain an M.A. degree.

Again, something is wrong there.

The reputation of Australian universities will, in my opinion eventually suffer. The degrees will be devalued on the international market.

I know this is just my opinion and you see things from a different perspective.

We think differently, I guess.

JuliaM
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Post by JuliaM » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:12 pm

"So, if Australian universities want to deliver 6 or 8 course work, non-research based Applied Linguistics progam, they should be called a
Certificate of Applied Linguistics, not an Master Degree."

But to enter a Masters degree in Australia, you MUST have an undergraduate degree with honours (usually first class), but to enter a certificate program (in Australia) you don't even have to be a graduate. THAT is the difference. A certificate or diploma qualification is not a post-graduate degree. Perhaps we're getting tangled up in the terminology.

"For instance, in Canada, community colleges offer certificate programs in Business Administration, Criminal Justice Studies, etc. These programs consist of 8 courses, or 4 courses per semester."

But you don't have to be a graduate with good grades to enter these programs.

"The reputation of Australian universities will, in my opinion eventually suffer. The degrees will be devalued on the international market."

I'm glad you said "in my opinion", because the Australian higher education system is based on the English one - ie. PhDs by research only, one year Masters degrees, grades awarded - not a grade point system, a semester system rather than terms etc. etc. and if my history is accurate, they've been doing it for quite a while, quite successfully in England. What Australia is doing is nothing new. Perhaps you have only recently heard about it, but this has been the system in Australia for about 200 years (not the online part), but the length of degrees etc is not a new phenomenon. Sydney University, the oldest and most prestigous university in Australia, was modelled on Cambridge and Oxford and it offers one year Masters degrees, with VERY HIGH grades and nothing short of first class honours from the undergraduate degree to get in. So they are not certificate programs.
I think our disagreement stems from your lack of understanding of the Australian system. As I said in a previous post - it is DIFFERENT, not inferior.

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