One sentence 'over the head' too many?

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fluffyhamster
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One sentence 'over the head' too many?

Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:41 pm

There's not been much "new" stuff posted on the AL Forum recently, so I hope people will welcome this. :P

The following is from the second chapter ("Language processing: speed and flexibility") of Ewa Dabrowska's Language, Mind and Brain: Some Psychological and Neurological Constraints on Theories of Grammar (Edinburgh University Press, 2004):
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>>>Watson and Reich (1979) found that nearly all the people they tested misinterpreted the sentence No head injury is too trivial to ignore to mean 'No head injury should be ignored, however trivial it may be'. But according to the rules of English grammar, the sentence cannot possibly mean this: it can only mean the exact opposite. Consider the following:

(3) a. No child is too obnoxious to look after.
'Every child should be looked after, no matter how obnoxious.'
b. No question is too stupid to answer.
'Every question should be answered, no matter how stupid.'
c. No mistake is too trivial to correct.
'Every mistake should be corrected, no matter how trivial.'

Therefore:

(4) No head injury is too trivial to ignore.
'Every head injury should be ignored, no matter how trivial.'

Why is it that people systematically misunderstand the last sentence, but not the other three? The problematic sentence is quite complex, both syntactically and semantically. The noun phrase no head injury, which functions as the theme of ignore, does not appear in its usual direct object position (as in We ignored the head injury) but at the beginning of the sentence, as the subject of the main verb, which makes it difficult to establish the relationship between them. The sentence also contains three negatives: the particle no and two logically negative expressions, too trivial (i.e. 'not serious enough') and ignore ('take no notice'). Furthermore, it is very odd from a pragmatic point of view, since it presupposes that serious matters should be ignored and trivial things attended to (cf. This is too trivial to ignore), as well as enjoining the addressee to ignore head injuries, which are widely known to be potentially dangerous. It is not particularly surprising, then, that many people misinterpret the sentence. What is interesting, however, is that they are so confident about their erroneous interpretation and find it extremely difficult to 'see' the correct one, even when they are told what it is.

(Watson, P.C and Reich, S.S (1979), 'A verbal illusion', Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology, 31, 591-7).<<<
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Call me stupid, but shouldn't Dabrowska have put scare quotes around (thus:) "correct" in her last sentence there? And call me confident too, because I think she has ironically overlooked the fact she herself has stated - that ignore is "logically negative" (compared to look after, answer and correct). (Then, there is also the paraphrase that Watson and Reich themselves offered of the generally held interpretation, to clue us in to what the oroginal sentence could well mean (despite what Darowska is saying to the contrary): 'No head injury should be ignored, however trivial it may be').

To my mind, then, sentence (4) can stand as it is and offers no problems interpretation-wise. If explanation/reinterpretation is considered necessary, surely (3) a-c should be glossed simply as:

'No child is too obnoxious to NOT look after (=that we cannot look after them)' etc., and (4) as:

'No head injury is too trivial to NOT take notice of.'

Any thoughts or opinions (one way or the other) would be appreciated (to help me evaluate the book, I guess).

I generally found it strange that although Dabrowska had just spent some time showing that people tend to only process things "shallowly", and are thus liable to reinterpret pragmatically anomalous sentences "correctly" (i.e. to "hear" or "read" what they expected to hear or read e.g. Clean up the mess or I won't report you becomes in paraphrases something like If you don't clean up the mess I will report you "54% of the time"), she is here getting a bit too "Chomskyan" for my liking, telling me what things should mean "according to the rules of English grammar" (what about the "complex" semantics she mentioned!), when I (along with probably "nearly all the people", "many people") just don't see it the "correct" (logical?!) way. :?

A similar kind of thing happened with a "garden path" sentence earlier in the chapter (put the book on the shelf: "prepositional phrase as complement to the verb", right? > She put the book on the shelf in the box: Oh no, our brains shreik! A modified noun/reduced relative clause!! As for my brain, it just chugged along like, "OK, she put the book...on the shelf...nice shelf...OK, so that book then...in(to) a box", without once thinking or even really imagining that shelves (at least not the sort one can put books on) are found inside boxes (unless one means the DIY self-assembly sort of shelves that one buys or gets delivered in cardboard boxes LOL).

Finally, and following on from the "trivial" sentences in the chapter, there is a section on "Frequency", and how the statistical properties of a language make its users prefer certain interpretations over others:
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>>>People are also sensitive to frequency information at more abstract levels. For example, when confronted with an ambiguous expression such as Someone stabbed the wife of the football star who was outside the house, where the relative clause (who was outside the house) can modify either the 'upstairs' or the 'downstairs' NP (the wife or the football star, respectively), English speakers usually prefer the latter interpretation - that is to say, in the absence of contextual information supporting the other reading, they interpret the sentence to mean that it was the football star, not the wife, who was outside the house. However, speakers of many other languages, including Spanish, normally choose the other interpretation when they hear or read the corresponding sentence in their own language. * This reflects the statistics of the language: corpus counts show that in English, a sequence consisting of a noun followed by a prepositional phrase and a relative clause is usually associated with the 'downstairs' interpretation, whereas the opposite is true in Spanish (Mitchell 1994: 398).

* I first became aware of this ambiguity, and the fact that there may be language-specific preferences in interpretation, when I was doing a Spanish language course as an undergraduate. One day, during a discussion about whether there was such a thing as true love, my teacher declared that El unico amor verdadero es el amor del dinero, y el amor del perro, que se compra ('The only true love is the love of money, and the love of a dog, which one buys'). I interpreted the relative clause as modifying the word dog, and dismissed the argument as completely irrelevant ('It doesn't matter whether you buy it or not, the important thing is that the dog loves you'), whereas my teacher obviously intended the other interpretation and insisted that you can't talk about true love if it (love, not the dog) is bought. It wasn't until after I left the class that I realised what he meant.

(Mitchell, D.C. (1994), 'Sentence parsing', in M.A. Gernsbacher (ed.), Handbook of Psycholinguistics, New York: Academic Press, pp.357-409).<<<
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Any Spanish speakers care to comment on the veracity of Dabrowska's comments? (Or, for that matter, any English speakers into relative clauses - e.g. I just noticed that the English example is "defining", but the Spanish one and its translation "non-defining"...).

Overall, though, I generally like the look of her book, and think it will be useful. She's considered a Cognitive linguist, and her interest in corpora, attested examples and frequency bodes well.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:10 pm

If, like me, you are worried (on the basis of the above "particularly tricky example") that you might be too stupid for linguistics (well, at least psycholinguistic research :lol: ), you might like to compare your performance with "the least educated participants" in one of Dabrowska's own studies:
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>>>In my own work (Dabrowska 1997), I have shown that shallow processing can also occur in the absence of a pragmatic bias towards an incorrect interpretation and is conversely correlated with educational achievement: that is to say, the more formal schooling a person has had, the more likely they are to make full use of the grammatical information available. The least educated participants in the study were usually able to extract locally encoded information, but had difficulty in processing long-distance dependencies. For example, when confronted with parasitic gap* sentences such as It was her boss that Louise persuaded that Margaret will interview, they were much better at identifying the interviewer (Margaret) than the interviewee (the boss). They were also sometimes unable to establish hierarchical relationships between clauses in multiply embedded sentences. Thus, the sentence Paul noticed that the fact that the room was tidy surprised Shona was frequently interpreted to mean 'Paul noticed that the room was tidy and this surprised Shona' - in other words, the respondents appeared to extract simple clauses from the input (Paul noticed something, the room was tidy, something surprised Shona) and then attempted to integrate their meanings without making use of the grammatical information available.

* A parasitic gap is a gap which has the same antecedent as another gap in the sentence, and which could not occur if the sentence did not contain the other gap: therefore, its presence is 'parasitic' on that of the other gap. In the example given in the text, the ordinary gap occurs after persuaded and the parasitic gap after interview; the noun phrase the boss is the antecedent for both.

(Dabrowska, E. (1997), 'The LAD goes to school: a cautionary tale for nativists', Linguistics, 35, 735-66).<<<
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I hate parasites. I also hate seeing several "thats" in a row. Smells like unattested BS to me. :evil:

Hmm, who was persuaded, the boss or Margaret? :twisted: Louise persuaded her boss to be interviewed by Margaret, right?

Shona was surprised (that) my room was tidy. (It would make a change if Paul was actually the one telling us this, eh!).

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:29 pm

So, you've maybe (while you've been reading the above) called me stupid, then overconfident. Now add "an optimistic realist" to that.

I mean, I think I understand why these kind of psycholinguistic experiments need to be done, and I can appreciate that it would not be productive to ignore Chomsky's approaches or theories totally, but jeez, what's ultimately so hard about understanding real language? As John Sinclair might say, just "Trust the text".

Syntactitians(?), and anyone else who deals with this syntax-related stuff (crap?), all seem to be obsessed with how we make sense of nonsensical unrealities (presumably we will eventually emerge with an understanding of how the mind "works" in processing real data - it's almost as if real data won't elicit enough detectable cognitive "steam" (read, "frustration"!) to be "useful" for whatever purposes e.g. securing further research funding :wink: ); semanticists agonize over how words like "dog" actually mean dog in relation to, say, hamsters; and generative semanticists ended up being ignored by everybody. :lol:

Maybe Chomsky was right when he said lingustics has little to offer teachers...but then, is Applied Linguistics any better? It can all be so, well, nondescript, seemingly irrelevant and out of touch. :evil:

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:53 pm

You seem to be having a conversation with yourself, here, fluff, so I'll just interject my first general reaction to Dabrowska's comments.

I too misinterpreted the sentence as did Dabrowska's subjects, and I too had a difficult time convincing myself that my interpretation was wrong. I too felt like it was the three comparative sentences which were "wrong" and wanted to stick a "no" or a "not" into them (No child is too obnoxious not to look after).

But then I saw that Dab was right, of course. And my reaction: People are always pragmatic about their use of language (isn't that what it's for?). And as such, people have certain practical expectations about what utterances mean, or should mean in their view. That's also why even those of us who think about grammar and stuff have absolutely no problem understanding precisely the meaning of "I don't get no respect", even when obnoxious grammar mavens point out that 'actually', it means that I do get respect.

People hear what they think makes sense, even when the rules of grammar don't exactly fit. Language, whatever we may analyze about it, remains a tool for communicating (presumably sensible) ideas.

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:43 pm

Thanks for replying, Larry, yeah, that was quite a long conversation I was having with myself there, but it interested me and I kept thinking of more I wanted to say and ask about (plus, I sometimes keep strange hours!).

Are you saying that Dab is an "obnoxious grammar maven", then? :)

Surely the similar forms there equate to similar meanings/interpretations (despite the differing semantics of the verbs) - wouldn't Head injuries are too trivial to ignore correspond more to what she is saying that No head injury... "actually" means (despite most people's pragmatic reaction to the contrary)? :?

Anyway, perhaps her approach is "correct" because she is ultimately showing (me!) that pragmatics wins over stuffy theorizing anyday (I guess this could've been her intention all along). 8)

Harzer
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Post by Harzer » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:57 pm

This is another case of the formalized rules of grammar limping along behind native-speaker usage.

I, along with the vast majority of native-speakers, have no doubt at all about what the 'incorrect' sentence is saying:

"There is no such thing as an injury to the head that is so trivial that it can be ignored"

It's up to the grammar people to write a rule that accounts for its correctness.

Harzer

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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:37 am

Are you saying that Dab is an "obnoxious grammar maven", then?
I wouldn't go that far, fluffy. After all, I've never had the pleasure of meeting her, have I. 8) She might be a dish, and sweet-tempered to boot!

But I always get my hackles up when I hear or read something suggesting that "nearly all people misinterpret [something]", or that "according to the rules of English grammar, the sentence cannot possibly mean this: it can only mean the exact opposite."

What some given utterance means is exactly what it is negotiated by the parties involved to mean. I hate it when some self-appointed expert undertakes to tell me what Shakespeare means when he says: blah-blah-blah. It might mean that to him [the expert], but maybe not to me. Of course, some people may have finer honed sensitivities for Shakespeare than I do, but I still reserve the right to make my own negotiation with William. If I don't get that out of the text, then it doesn't mean that to me. At the same time, I realize that I'm guilty of suggesting that use of a past tense form means that the person choosing that language expresses a remoteness in some respect. Of course, I believe the exact nature of the remoteness is open to interpretation by the receiver, even if context and cotext usually conspire to make an obvious and reasonable interpretation stand out.

Larry Latham

revel
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Curse you, fluffy hampster!

Post by revel » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:46 am

Good morning all!

Darn you, fluff, why did you begin this thread just on a day when within five minutes I have to be somewhere else, arguing the same theme with a non-native EFL teacher who insists on comparing AE with BE for the entire class as if it will help him to communicate better during the ten days he'll be in Salt Lake City this December?!? I have the distinct feeling that I have something to say but have to read over your posts and those of Larry and Harzier first to make sure I'm not just repeating what everyone else is saying. Sooo, I'll get back to this later on, I'm not ignoring you all!

Thanks for the new theme.... Or is it really new? 8)

peace,
revel.

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Post by lolwhites » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:43 pm

If you prefer the "grammatical" interpretation to the "incorrect" one, does that make you a pragmatic failure? :wink:

Nice link, fluffy. Make a change from remoteness anyway

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:26 am

I forgot to say at the time, but I also thought that the Someone stabbed the wife of the football star who was outside the house sentence was pretty silly too.

If this footballer is so famous, why not just say his name after "wife of..." (and, if his wife is equally famous e.g. Victoria Beckham aka Posh spice, we could say her name instead); and what were the doubtless generative grammarian concocters of the sentence thinking when they passed over "stabbed" so lightly, to focus instead on "who was outside the house"? Did they just have a sly sense of humour, or were they missing the point of language entirely?!

Pragmatic faliures in every sense, lol! They begin with dodgy theories, and still haven't produced anything that can be applied outside the confines of their theorizing in, what, over four decades?(!) :roll:

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Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:37 pm


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Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:27 am


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Post by ouyang » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:58 pm

I haven't spent much time thinking about these types of double/multiple negations. However, I think an important point might be that the infinitive phrase is complementing the adverb "too" in these structures. Leave out the word "too", and the sentences have no meaning.

"No head injury is too trivial to be ignored."
"No detail was too small to omit."

Replace the infinitive phrases with the opposite verbs "to be treated" and "to include" and the sentences have the same meaning. I would say that the infinitive phrase is simply providing a contextual process for the adverb, and that's all we need to discern its meaning.

I agree with Larry that interpreting these sentences otherwise would be a mistake on the part of the listener or reader. However, the speaker has made a mistake that instructors should correct.

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