I'm not a native speaker of American English language, but I'd like to know a teacher's opinion about what language barries and broken English mean and limitation of those.
I was told by my supervisor a few weeks ago that the people who interviewed me when I got my job didn't want to hire me because of the "language barriers", but she (my supervisor) was the one who challenged them to hire me.
Now, I don't believe my English is bad and I got many compliments over the years and I believe taht there were just 2 people who ever said to me that they couldn't understand me.
My question is: how do you Americans see this language barriers or what exactly does it means ?
I read an article about Arlold Scwazeneger's broken English, but I don't believe is that "broken". It's amazing how Americans believe that when non-native speakers make a few mistakes (I mean not basic grammar mistakes kind) in their conversation that is bad or broken English.
I worked in a few hi-tech companies and even a library and I was among just Americans who didn't know how to spell (they were making basic spelling errors such as tomorow instead of tomorrow etc.) or they weren't able to write a
meanful sentence. I also know that there are not many Americans who speak a second language. Once I talked with a yong lady, about 25 yo , and she said that she speaks French very well, after 5 years of studying. All she knew was: numbers 1 to 20, a few sentences such as: what's your name, how much is it etc and she called this "good French".
I don't know if this has something to do with that fact that many Americans are now against foreigners or simple they are not able to understand somebody who has an accent. I personally don't have any problems undestanding other people with an accent, but I remember now how a friend of mine couldn't be understood when he pronounced the word "Parma". He proounced it with a short not rounded "a" instead a rounded "a" and the lady couldn't understood him. In my opinion there no much difference between these 2 sounds.
Or maybe it's just because Americans expect others to be perfect , even if this doesn't exist, but they consider themselves very good even if in the reality is not like that.
I also know that sometimes Americans don't undestand each other, perhaps of the speed of speaking, but this seems to be normal, I mean nobody talks about this or complains about it, but all over the internet we can see articles about broken English or language barriers.
Of course I know that myself and perhaps other foreigners will still make mistakes in English language even after many years of speaking it or studying it, but are these mistakes so bad or obvious that our English is considered broken? What about all these native speakers who make mistakes too, but nobody seems to care about it... Is this just because of teh difference between being born in the USA and someplace else?
I hope I didn't offend any American with my writing, it wasn't my intention.
Thank you for any answer in advance.
I need a teacher's opinion on...
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Perhaps speaking to ESL teachers isn't the best way to find out what "Americans" think. After all, we have dedicated our professional lives to working with people from other cultures. I am sure we, as a profession, have a higher percentage of people who speak and have studied other languages than in the general population.
In my opinion, the bottom line is whether or not the speaker or reader/writer can understand and be understood. If accent or grammar problems interfere with understanding, then it is a problem. My city, San Francisco, has a large immigrant population from all corners of the world. If my students ask me why they have to speak to each other, since they are afraid the person they are talking to may be making errors, I explain that to do business in this city they have to understand everyone's accent. The bank teller, the grocery store worker, the restaurant waiter, the hospital workers, and on and on -- many have assorted accents.
Well, I don't know if I answered your question or not, but I seem to be stepping on the soapbox recently.
In my opinion, the bottom line is whether or not the speaker or reader/writer can understand and be understood. If accent or grammar problems interfere with understanding, then it is a problem. My city, San Francisco, has a large immigrant population from all corners of the world. If my students ask me why they have to speak to each other, since they are afraid the person they are talking to may be making errors, I explain that to do business in this city they have to understand everyone's accent. The bank teller, the grocery store worker, the restaurant waiter, the hospital workers, and on and on -- many have assorted accents.
Well, I don't know if I answered your question or not, but I seem to be stepping on the soapbox recently.
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LarryLatham
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It's nice to add my opinion to those verbalized by Lorikeet, whose views I respect, including those she has expressed here.
Your feelings are just about on track, eurotraveller. It also is my observation that some Americans have little patience trying to understand the speech production of non-native users of English. I suspect it is not Americans alone, but may be a characteristic of some minority of native speakers of all languages everywhere. Perhaps it is a human characteristic, and not one of the more attractive ones.
Quite the contrary to the views of some Americans you have met, I believe you deserve congratulations for your English, and I expect most Americans will agree. Despite some minor and insignificant imperfections of form, you have a wonderful ability to express your ideas clearly in English, a talent you correctly identify as not universal even among native speakers. Sounds to me like you are doing fine, and I hope you keep going just as you are. Most people, I believe, will admire your achievements.
And I hope you like the Cleveland area.
Larry Latham
Your feelings are just about on track, eurotraveller. It also is my observation that some Americans have little patience trying to understand the speech production of non-native users of English. I suspect it is not Americans alone, but may be a characteristic of some minority of native speakers of all languages everywhere. Perhaps it is a human characteristic, and not one of the more attractive ones.
Quite the contrary to the views of some Americans you have met, I believe you deserve congratulations for your English, and I expect most Americans will agree. Despite some minor and insignificant imperfections of form, you have a wonderful ability to express your ideas clearly in English, a talent you correctly identify as not universal even among native speakers. Sounds to me like you are doing fine, and I hope you keep going just as you are. Most people, I believe, will admire your achievements.
And I hope you like the Cleveland area.
Larry Latham
American intolerance
The Americans, most of them are decent people, like you and me. However, as a general rule, the whole nation of America has a very centralistic view of their nation and culture. They feel they are the centre of the universe, the one and only culture worthy of consideration: America the GREAT, the BEAUTIFUL, the POWERFUL, and of course THE MOST RIGHTEOUS! Much of these is true, however, its another thing to gloat or flaunt it. That is why they are often blind to their own faults and flaws, even in spoken language. Need I say more?
Is it any wonder now that many of them want to come to Canada to distance themselves from that arrogant attitude? Many, almost about 50% have a more down to earth attitude like that of yours and mine. It's too bad that this "almost " 50% has to live under the cloud of the other 50%, the BUSH camp.
Bush may have won the election but he lost almost half of America.....
This is my opinion North of the 49th.
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LarryLatham
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If you want to talk politics directly, find another forum. This one, if you haven't noticed, is for language and its associated cultural elements. The outcome of the American election, whichever way you might fall on it, has nothing to do with that.It's too bad that this "almost " 50% has to live under the cloud of the other 50%, the BUSH camp.
Bush may have won the election but he lost almost half of America.....
Larry Latham
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Stephen Jones
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Dear eurotraveller:
Your post is full of mistakes. Maybe not totally broken, but certainly full of cracks.
Native speaker "mistakes" are normally of a quite different kind. In fact they are not normally mistakes, but rather use of a different social or regional dialect than the appropriate register.
And when Americans or any other English speakers say they don't understand something you say, it normally is precisely that - they don't understand. Nothing to do with them being perfectionists or prejudiced against foreigners. Normally a non-native speaker can be understood because all languages have a lot of redundancy built in (though English has less than many because of its lack of gender), but add subtly different vowel sounds to non-expected vocabulary and most important of all, the wrong stress pattern, and you will find your best attempts will sometimes be met with a blank stare.
Your post is full of mistakes. Maybe not totally broken, but certainly full of cracks.
Native speaker "mistakes" are normally of a quite different kind. In fact they are not normally mistakes, but rather use of a different social or regional dialect than the appropriate register.
And when Americans or any other English speakers say they don't understand something you say, it normally is precisely that - they don't understand. Nothing to do with them being perfectionists or prejudiced against foreigners. Normally a non-native speaker can be understood because all languages have a lot of redundancy built in (though English has less than many because of its lack of gender), but add subtly different vowel sounds to non-expected vocabulary and most important of all, the wrong stress pattern, and you will find your best attempts will sometimes be met with a blank stare.
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joshua2004
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- Location: Torreon, Mexico
Maybe its the fact that schools want a native speaker for purely marketing reasons despite the fact that you may be an excellent and dedicated teacher. If that is the case, it is a shame they didn´t hire you. My girlfriend is currently teaching English with me and only spent 5 years in the USA. Her English is quite good however. I find that she is an excellent teacher at helping the students learn to comunicate in English. It should be noted that the finer points of grammar and polish that educated native speakers have, cannot be "taught" anyway.(It comes from thier own study) Someone who is a native speaker therefor cannot expect to realisticly have an supreme advantage over a non-native speaker in teaching someone finer points of a language. I hope that was clear. I would hire you, personally, if you were a dedicated teacher and could speak (communicate) effectively.
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woodcutter
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- Location: London
I don't think that Eurotraveller wanted a job as a teacher. If he did, then the mistakes Stephen mentioned wouldn't be very helpful. In most fields there should be no problem - but unfortunately people who have little experience talking with foreigners find it difficult to do so.
I think that non-native speakers can be great teachers of their own nationality, since they have a perfect understanding of the particular problems, but I do think that students who feel a little let down when they get all the way to Britain/USA/Australia and are taught by a foreigner have a point. The cultural experience is important, for one thing.
I think that non-native speakers can be great teachers of their own nationality, since they have a perfect understanding of the particular problems, but I do think that students who feel a little let down when they get all the way to Britain/USA/Australia and are taught by a foreigner have a point. The cultural experience is important, for one thing.
Generalizations....
Hey everyone.
This is one of those threads where we all offer up our own generalizations and thus step on the toes of those who we have generalized about and then get chewed out for having stepped on those toes and so end up with sore toes ourselves. Let us remember, please, that "Americans" refers to some 280 million individual souls, mouths, realities, etc.
With that said, I'll tell my little anecdote. An old high school friend comes to Spain to visit. We are walking through the streets of Tarragona when she suddenly shouts out and rushes into a perfume shop. She had seen a brand of perfume in the shop window that is not available in the USA. She imediately began speaking enthusiastically with the shop girl, in English and rapidly became frustrated when she discovered that the poor shop girl didn't understand a word being addressed to her. I stepped in and translated. After buying six bottles of this rather expensive perfume and leaving the shop, my old high school friend asked me why the shop girl did not speak English. I quickly pointed out that perhaps she (my friend) had forgotten that she was in Spain, where the majority of the people speak Spanish. Why, just the night before her sister (visiting with her) had asked for a Margarita in a bar, thinking that being in a Spanish speaking country like Mexico, such a drink would be fare for the course. Naturally, it was not and she had to settle for a whiskey with soda.
Should I, based on this anecdote, say that Americans are boorish when visiting countries where English is not spoken? I would hope not. I'm not a very patriotic American myself, have lived in "exile" for many many years, am not offended by anti-american sentiments, but do get a chuckle out of these generalizations that surge from individual experiences with them.
peace,
revel.
This is one of those threads where we all offer up our own generalizations and thus step on the toes of those who we have generalized about and then get chewed out for having stepped on those toes and so end up with sore toes ourselves. Let us remember, please, that "Americans" refers to some 280 million individual souls, mouths, realities, etc.
With that said, I'll tell my little anecdote. An old high school friend comes to Spain to visit. We are walking through the streets of Tarragona when she suddenly shouts out and rushes into a perfume shop. She had seen a brand of perfume in the shop window that is not available in the USA. She imediately began speaking enthusiastically with the shop girl, in English and rapidly became frustrated when she discovered that the poor shop girl didn't understand a word being addressed to her. I stepped in and translated. After buying six bottles of this rather expensive perfume and leaving the shop, my old high school friend asked me why the shop girl did not speak English. I quickly pointed out that perhaps she (my friend) had forgotten that she was in Spain, where the majority of the people speak Spanish. Why, just the night before her sister (visiting with her) had asked for a Margarita in a bar, thinking that being in a Spanish speaking country like Mexico, such a drink would be fare for the course. Naturally, it was not and she had to settle for a whiskey with soda.
Should I, based on this anecdote, say that Americans are boorish when visiting countries where English is not spoken? I would hope not. I'm not a very patriotic American myself, have lived in "exile" for many many years, am not offended by anti-american sentiments, but do get a chuckle out of these generalizations that surge from individual experiences with them.
peace,
revel.
Self-awareness
Reading and self-awareness are important for all language teachers. English is not only belonging to Americans, British or Australians as the websites describing the English speaking countries. Whether East or West is, the word respecting and learning from one another are major to communicate among people. Many a time, food in the tropical zones are not found in the temperate zones, how the language be transfer and learnt ?
The are many cultural aspects that one language can not be descibed, like jiaozi is not found in any other countries but only the northern part of China. But jiaozi is translated to dumpling which Merriam Webster dictionary explains otherwise.
Native speakers may not be able to carry the thought fully as there are cultural barriers. Recognised the fact and add verities to the language.
The are many cultural aspects that one language can not be descibed, like jiaozi is not found in any other countries but only the northern part of China. But jiaozi is translated to dumpling which Merriam Webster dictionary explains otherwise.
Native speakers may not be able to carry the thought fully as there are cultural barriers. Recognised the fact and add verities to the language.
Last edited by paksu on Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
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I would like to respond to the first posting by eurotraveller if I may:
I too think your English is amazing. However any non-native speaker has plenty of room for improving (as many of the ESL teachers here probably can in their chosen second languages: Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, French, etc) The term "broken English" is nowhere near a linguistic term and is a way of unspecifically saying that there's something wrong with the way you speak. And as pointed out by others on this posting, English speakers who never educate themselves on the subject of language frequently use such terms basing their statements on huge prejudicial ideas about the speaker (I've never heard someone say Arnold speaks in "broken English" but to say that is quite innaccurate) People who use such terms aren't quite qualified to say so.
I'd like to also point out that one's spelling does not determine his/her competency in English. Saying you've met Americans who mispell certain words proves very little. Writing is a tool to express yourself when your communicating long-distance (like writing an email or letter) or to record thoughts/creations (like a book, pubic record, etc). But its always used to represent the oral language. A language does not neccessarily have to have a written form. The written form for English is very old and from different sources, so the word "fish" could be written "phyti" if the written form accurately represented the oral (if you'd like me to explain how, just ask). The written form doesn't evolve fast enough. So if an American's spelling has a few mistakes, judging them for it is as silly as the people who judged your English "broken." You'd do well to remember that.
I too think your English is amazing. However any non-native speaker has plenty of room for improving (as many of the ESL teachers here probably can in their chosen second languages: Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, French, etc) The term "broken English" is nowhere near a linguistic term and is a way of unspecifically saying that there's something wrong with the way you speak. And as pointed out by others on this posting, English speakers who never educate themselves on the subject of language frequently use such terms basing their statements on huge prejudicial ideas about the speaker (I've never heard someone say Arnold speaks in "broken English" but to say that is quite innaccurate) People who use such terms aren't quite qualified to say so.
I'd like to also point out that one's spelling does not determine his/her competency in English. Saying you've met Americans who mispell certain words proves very little. Writing is a tool to express yourself when your communicating long-distance (like writing an email or letter) or to record thoughts/creations (like a book, pubic record, etc). But its always used to represent the oral language. A language does not neccessarily have to have a written form. The written form for English is very old and from different sources, so the word "fish" could be written "phyti" if the written form accurately represented the oral (if you'd like me to explain how, just ask). The written form doesn't evolve fast enough. So if an American's spelling has a few mistakes, judging them for it is as silly as the people who judged your English "broken." You'd do well to remember that.
So if an American's spelling has a few mistakes, judging them for it is as silly as the people who judged your English "broken." You'd do well to remember that.
What a lot of crap.
American students come off very badly in comparative studies such as PISA. Other cultures obviously value correct use of their written language, and deplore sloppiness, for the very reason that it 'determines their competency' in that language. To them Americans look like yobs. You'd do well to remember that.
Judging from the mistakes in your post you are either not a native speaker of English at all or a semi-educated one and should refrain from comment .
Harzer
What a lot of crap.
American students come off very badly in comparative studies such as PISA. Other cultures obviously value correct use of their written language, and deplore sloppiness, for the very reason that it 'determines their competency' in that language. To them Americans look like yobs. You'd do well to remember that.
Judging from the mistakes in your post you are either not a native speaker of English at all or a semi-educated one and should refrain from comment .
Harzer
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LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Harzer, I do, in general, respect the views you post here. But this one, I fear, is a big mistake. Perhaps wjserson has hit a sensitive nerve in your mind, which has caused this angry response. I assure you, however, that Mr. wjserson knows whereof he speaks. After you calm down, you might do well to look again, carefully, at exactly what he says and what he refrains from saying. You might come to a different conclusion. Unless, of course, you are really expressing your personal view of Americans. And of the proper use of English.Harzer, in replying to wjserson wrote:What a lot of crap.
American students come off very badly in comparative studies such as PISA. Other cultures obviously value correct use of their written language, and deplore sloppiness, for the very reason that it 'determines their competency' in that language. To them Americans look like yobs. You'd do well to remember that.
Judging from the mistakes in your post you are either not a native speaker of English at all or a semi-educated one and should refrain from comment .
Larry Latham
Blame Gates
Dear Mr JonesStephen Jones wrote:Dear paksu
Maybe, if we translated your post back into either Malayasian or Chinese, it would make perfect sense. In English however it is difficult to follow what you mean sentence by sentence and quite impossible to discern your general point, if indeed you have one.
The passage did not show grammar or construction errors using the microsoft word spell and grammar checker. Who should be blamed ?