Any difference in meaning?

[LarryLatham]

I think you're taking things way too far, Fluffy. I was simply responding to your request:

Can you enlighten us a bit, Larry? I'm afraid a lot of the type of nuances you seem to able to detect/see/hear pass right by my brain/eyes/ears (I've just not read Lewis as closely as you have, I guess ). Then I'll be able to disagree with you without needing to do any homework of my own.

...and perhaps answering William's original question. However, I wouldn't necessarily recommend teaching this in the ESL/EFL classroom. If a student comes to me with a question like William's, I probably would start with, "Well, technically there's a difference, but for all practical purposes they mean just about the same", and see if that satisfied them. I know William, from his previous postings, to be a teacher, and so in this thread, I tried to get him to work it out for himself, and for all I know, he did.

As for the homework doing itself...well, I tried that a hundred times with my sons when they were young. Never seemed to do much good, of course. Their homework often did not do itself. But seriously, the difference in grammatical subject between Sentence a) and Sentence b) does draw attention, or focus, to different elements in this drama of homeworker and homework. Surely that could be considered an important difference between them.

And finally, as regards temporal or qualitative concepts, I wasn't referring to any pair of sentences. I was referring to interpretations of the word, "finished."

Please note that nowhere here was I making a pedagogical argument. I thought I was having a conversation with some teachers.

Larry Latham

[fluffyhamster]

I think you're taking things way too far, Fluffy. I was simply responding to your request

Losing patience with me, or just can't go the distance?

If a student comes to me with a question like William's, I probably would start with, "Well, technically there's a difference, but for all practical purposes they mean just about the same", and see if that satisfied them.

(= student stillwaiting for more satisfactory answer)

I know William, from his previous postings, to be a teacher, and so in this thread, I tried to get him to work it out for himself, and for all I know, he did.

Yes, William's posted a number of questions on Dave's. Sometimes he replies to the answers and gets involved, sometimes not. It'll be interesting to see if he remains involved in this involved discussion!

As for the homework doing itself...well, I tried that a hundred times with my sons when they were young. Never seemed to do much good, of course. Their homework often did not do itself. But seriously, the difference in grammatical subject between Sentence a) and Sentence b) does draw attention, or focus, to different elements in this drama of homeworker and homework. Surely that could be considered an important difference between them.

But still, you'd be asking more or less the same thing with:

Is your homework finished?
Have you finished your homework?
and perhaps even:
Did you finish your homework?
(all three said to a child now sitting in front of TV)

And finally, as regards temporal or qualitative concepts, I wasn't referring to any pair of sentences. I was referring to interpretations of the word, "finished."

Ouch.

Please note that nowhere here was I making a pedagogical argument. I thought I was having a conversation with some teachers.

Us, teachers? Nah...we don't even know what the word 'pedogogy' means, mate. Sorry!

[metal56]

[Losing patience with me, or just can't go the distance?

I'd understand him if he did lose patience with you, as you seem to be one who loves getting into scrapes.

[fluffyhamster]

[fluffyhamster]

[fluffyhamster]

[metal56]

But still, you'd be asking more or less the same thing with:

Is your homework finished?
Have you finished your homework?
and perhaps even:
Did you finish your homework?
(all three said to a child now sitting in front of TV)

Fluff, if you had read your Lewis, you'd know that the difference, however subtle, Larry sees between those two sentences is partly based on subjective interpretation - that's why it isn't always easy to advise an inquisitive Grammar-headed student on usage.

I too see a difference between the two sentences as I do between these more obvious, pairings:

Have you finished with your pie? (Because if you have, then sling it this way. I'm starving.)

Have you finished your pie? (Why didn't you save some for me?/Then off to bed with you)

I see the difference. Maybe you don't, and that's fine, but my interpretation is based on imagining a different context and the speaker's need for asking the above question. Sometimes, the above, and original, thread pairing, can have the same meaning, and sometimes not.

Have you finished with your ranting?
Have you finished ranting?

[LarryLatham]

Uh....so, William, ...are you satisfied?

Larry Latham


Oops! Didn't see your post there, M56. You must've hit your "submit" button just before I did.

You make an excellent point that most of us don't always consider. What each of us sees, oftentimes, in the grammar of phrases or sentences under discussion is to some extent driven by the imagined context we see them in. And by their very nature, those are different for everyone. What you may see clearly, I may not see at all. And it isn't always just because I'm too dumb to notice...

[fluffyhamster]

But still, you'd be asking more or less the same thing with:

Is your homework finished?
Have you finished your homework?
and perhaps even:
Did you finish your homework?
(all three said to a child now sitting in front of TV)

Fluff, if you had read your Lewis, you'd know that the difference, however subtle, Larry sees between those two sentences is partly based on subjective interpretation - that's why it isn't always easy to advise an inquisitive Grammar-headed student on usage.

I too see a difference between the two sentences as I do between these more obvious, pairings:

Have you finished with your pie? (Because if you have, then sling it this way. I'm starving.)

Have you finished your pie? (Why didn't you save some for me?/Then off to bed with you)

I see the difference. Maybe you don't, and that's fine, but my interpretation is based on imagining a different context and the speaker's need for asking the above question. Sometimes, the above, and original, thread pairing, can have the same meaning, and sometimes not.

Have you finished with your ranting?
Have you finished ranting?

I'd hardly say I've been 'ranting' (well, not on this thread at any rate). I'd hoped that the emoticons there would've calmed people down rather than wound then up even more tightly.

All this talk of imagining different contexts, where are they in Larry's posts? I just see a lot of talk about the timimg/verbs/grammar itself looking and pointing backwards and forwards, fairly obvious phrases like: 'But now we must remember that both example sentences in this case are questions. That means that the speaker, contrary to when he is making an assertion, is requesting the listener to express his view of things. So that...', which leads into some dubious paraphrasing with plenty of italic font. In your posts, metal, you contradict the assertions that are obviously debatable and would get anyone thinking about their validity, but do you present a clear argument yourself here (such as woodcutter or Stephen have)?

Talking of unclear arguments, since when have I not seen the difference between 'Have you finished with (=eating, playing with, doing whatever with etc) your pie' and 'Have you finished your pie?'? Ever since I became aware of woodcutter's post I've been championing 'with' with a vengence. I'd ask you (and everyone else) to look back through my posts and tell me where I've said or implied otherwise.

Your final two examples have the same meaning, right? (Always a good idea to check ). The important thing in determining if there is a difference between 'finished' and 'finished with' is whether the person asking the question wants what the other person has got. But what, then, does a person who wants to copy your homework say to get it from you, then (to modify the "advice" I gave to William earlier about John's homework)?!

Have you finished your homework ?
Have you finished with your homework?

Here we go again...

[metal56]

Have you finished your homework ?
Have you finished with your homework?

To me the second one is more marked, syntactically, than the first. It leads me to ask why "with" is there. Maybe for no special reason at all in some cases, but still it leads me into questioning the purpose.

More emphatic?

Have you finished with your homework? You've taken so long and I'm bored. I want to go out and play!

(Tentative) Hidden thoughts:

Have you finished with your homework? OK, so can I borrow it?


Criticism:

Have you finished with your homework? You get bored so easily. C'mon finish it!

[fluffyhamster]

Ooh, good contexts there, metal. The hamster's theories about perhaps getting the homework off of the person instead of asking them if they've finished doing it come crashing down. I should confine myself to things more certain, like asking for the ketchup to add to my takeaway hamburgers whilst I'm doing my own homework badly.

'More marked, syntactically', good thing to remember. Then, having/adding more context helps us a lot in understanding why the quesion was asked.

[woodcutter]

The person asking the "with" question is not concerned if the homework is unfinished, and is unlikely to be a mother (as Metal's examples suggest).

It's interesting to compare, by the way

I have finished with my homework and
I am finished with my homework

I can't think of another kind of sentence in which "have" and "am" can be swapped to so little effect.

[fluffyhamster]

The person asking the "with" question is not concerned if the homework is unfinished, and is unlikely to be a mother (as Metal's examples suggest).

It's interesting to compare, by the way

I have finished with my homework and
I am finished with my homework

I can't think of another kind of sentence in which "have" and "am" can be swapped to so little effect.

What then is the advice we can give to William? I think woodcutter has provided the clearest answer (I somehow missed his first post there before, it's like Larry's loomed larger or something!). The most obvious difference is the presence/absence of 'with' (="using; doing"), so I would be looking for further examples of that, after both 'Are you finished with...?' and 'Have you finished with...?', and asking how they both (together, as a pair) contrast with the good old-fashioned plain and simple 'Have you finished your homework (yet)?' that students know and love so well.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... 3311#13311

Feels like we're going in circles.

[woodcutter]

But my point is I don't think my last 2 examples can be usefully compared to other pairs. The structure is fairly unique, the fact that the verb phrase in question is "finished with" makes the passive/adjective use of "finished" similar to the active, an odd situation.

[fluffyhamster]

Woodcutter mentioned something about the "salient" difference being 'finished' vs. 'finished with'. Larry also said something about qualitative vs. temporal aspects of 'finished' ('not sentences'). All of which got me thinking about ellipsis:

Finished?
*Finished with?
Finished with your homework?

I am not claiming that this is or should be an "acceptable" test, but it might help us (me!) think up clearer contexts and from them an answer to William's question (which seems to be that there is no real difference, until further context - that is, words - are added to achieve something functionally and, indirectly, make us, the "obervers", that is, "inventors" or "screenplay writers", understand what "was" meant).

That is all just a long-winded way of saying that we can never really know the meaning of decontextualized (pairs of) sentences, and that the only things we can help with are obvious grammatical mistakes like using a transitive verb intransitively.