Don't go there?

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fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:50 am

"All" that I'm suggesting here is that we look at the relative frequencies of the lexicogrammar throughout a conceptual hierachy, to help us "write" better "scripts" (schemes, frames etc).

I don't just want to be "talking about" "switching on lights" or "bells" or "sounds" in my classroom, I want to know why I might be talking about them. Without examining "superordinates", Rinvolucri's exercises seem to be firing off at random into the lexicogrammar, much like being asked to talk about a fire extinguisher for two minutes or think of 101 uses for your copy of Grammar Games (besides teach with it).

A light is simply a "DEVICE that produces light, such as a lamp or a light bulb", a device an "OBJECT or machine which has been invented to fulfil a particular purpose", an object "a THING that you can see or touch but that is not usually a living animal, plant or person", and a thing "(a word) used to refer in an approximate way to an object or to avoid naming it" (and there the trail seems to run cold in my CALD). There isn't ultimately anything that "remarkable" or "illuminating" about a light beyond an appreciation of its "convenience" (as opposed to, say, a consideration of how a hamster got its cheekpouches. They really are such greedy little creatures, aren't they, nibbling the earth away grams at a time! :lol: ). A bell is "a hollow metal object shaped like a cup which makes a ringing sound when hit by something hard"...how would you describe its sound...hmm...metallic? Hollow? Hard? (I hope nobody says 'Bells ring' :roll: , or even, 'Like it's Rinvolucri's funeral' :wink: ).

Tell me honestly, what associations are springing to mind with each of those last three words there? Something to do with taste; perhaps regarding the shape/emptiness of an object, and by metaphorical extension, to describe a victory; and more to do with the sense of touch than sound, right? The point is, do we need to describe the sound a bell makes? Is it something we usually spend our time doing? More importantly, is it something we can spend time on in an ESL classroom where, to use a cliche, there is "so little" time (to bother getting serious in?!)?

(I still like the idea of guessing what a sound was, that is, what produced a sound; or of asking what is still producing a sound, and maybe expressing annoyance. But these associations, query < > sound, and annoy < > sound, would probably not emerge clearly from a framework/relational semantics; functions are doubtless more visible in a syntagmatic rather than paradigmatic approach).

Often the only things of any immediate, linguistic importance are the collocations in the examples (that's not to say that Rinvolucri's exercise isn't intellectually or emotionally fascinating, affectively compelling, a way to explore thoughts and produce English at random, but you could as easily find out many fascinating things by e.g. looking up what 'hollow' means, if you'd had your nose stuck in a dictionary and were intrigued by that word in the CALD's 'bell' definition), or noticing that e.g. another meaning of 'a light' is 'sthg to light cigarettes, that is, a matchstick or lighter'. Collocations and phrases and "finally" sentences could then be assigned a function and/or slotted into the discoursal and/or conceptual hierachy.

That's all just a way of long-winded way of saying, 'Learn your English thoroughly if you want to be able to talk about "anything"!'.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:00 am, edited 4 times in total.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 am

Perhaps I don't really understand your post, Fluffy, (and in fact I don't quite), and perhaps also I don't understand Rinvolucri's ideas either. But my reading of the light-switch homework suggests that he (rather brilliantly, I think) wants us to ask students to think about what they feel or how they feel at some particular time when they are out of class. The light switch is used merely to mark a point in time, and is not intended to be part of the thinking or feeling of the student. This is much better than to only ask students to think about something they feel strongly about in preparation for the next class. That is too general. Picking a momentary event in everbody's everyday lives is what is brilliant about Rinvolucri's idea. Everyone will flip a switch between one class and the next, and it's at that moment that you ask the student to stop and think about what's in their mind just at that moment.

Am I completely wrong about this?

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:45 am

Of course you're not wrong, Larry (you seldom if ever are!). But in starting from light switches for no obvious linguistic, discoursal or "ultimate" reason risks turning the teaching side of things at least into something resembling a religious cult.

The students may come up with some interesting thoughts/language, and enjoy it, which in turn may be a sign of the times ( a need for spirituality, religion, fluffy thinking, which I myself also like to "get me some of" from time to time), but let's not forget that the students did come to us to be taught "English". And I don't mean English incidentally, but a linguistically somewhat planned course. All I'm saying is, I don't think Rinvolucri is or can hope to covering enough with too many activities like that, and taken as a whole, they don't give you much of an indication of how English works (but I suppose you could say it gives you some idea of what "progressive" types are interested in).

It would probably be more realistic if anybody participating in that activity expressed their amusement/irritation/scorn/contempt - and that could generate a lot of interest and a fair amount of learning, don't you think! 'Look at the following humanistic learning exercise, and prepare to tell the rest of the class what you (really) think of it in no uncertain terms (=feel free to "eff and blind" as much as you like). In fact, make sure you come to the next class ready to begin ranting immediately, to show you are really annoyed, because that will help set up the whole of the following discourse much more realistically. You do not need be too caring and considerate, extreme emotions are to be embraced as part of human nature and can also be learnt from as much as hugging a tree, stroking a hamster or turning a light bulb on and off can aid you in your quest for enlightenment.'

:lol:
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:09 am

...but let's not forget that the students did come to us to be taught "English".
Would you think I was picking too many nits, Fluffy, if I suggested that they came to learn English, and that may not be the same as expecting to be taught?

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:21 am

LarryLatham wrote:The light switch is used merely to mark a point in time, and is not intended to be part of the thinking or feeling of the student.
But my point still is, if light switches 'aren't in fact meant to be part of our thinking or feelings', then why suddenly make them part of our thinking and feelings? Do the accepted norms of the real world simply stop operating in English classrooms? Is this ultimately acceptable? More to the point, does it help the student understand how English works in that "excluded", real world?
This is much better than to only ask students to think about something they feel strongly about in preparation for the next class. That is too general.
I agree. It gives students little idea of how the feelings come to be expressed in an unfolding context. Suddenly, or gradually? To whom? By what linguistic means, exactly? With what effect, "appropriateness-wise"? Many many things to consider here; certainly a student who stand up, dusts off a "speech" and begins reading an "answer" out to the class is NOT learning anything about how to actually "simply" slip that into a real conversation.
Picking a momentary event in everbody's everyday lives is what is brilliant about Rinvolucri's idea. Everyone will flip a switch between one class and the next, and it's at that moment that you ask the student to stop and think about what's in their mind just at that moment.
We can and do ask questions like "What are you thinking", but 99.99% of the time, the person we've asked isn't switching on a light, in fact, they may be doing absolutely nothing at all, which is exactly why the question was asked: because the answer might be so interesting (or at least break the silence); certainly, the answer will not be as obvious as the ones I suggested will almost certainly be given to Rinvolucri's exercise (see the end of my first post on this thread), unless your students are like Ren Hoeck (of Ren and Stimpy fame): 'Turning on a light switch, I feel powerful, DANGEROUS!!!'. :lol:

Basically, I think Rinvoulcri is not being particaularly brilliant here at all. He's just being a little too unimaginative, if anything (to put a different spin on things), and will probably do nothing more than elicit the same old, "tired" answers from overexcitable students in the classes after classes that get to sample the same "chef's special" recipe he cooked up there.

Adding too much bile to the stew there, but it's for Rinvolucri, so who cares, right? Just don't tell him I gobbed in it, okay? :lol: :wink:

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:32 am

LarryLatham wrote:
...but let's not forget that the students did come to us to be taught "English".
Would you think I was picking too many nits, Fluffy, if I suggested that they came to learn English, and that may not be the same as expecting to be taught?

Larry Latham
you know, Larry, honest to God, I wrote 'learn' before. But I decided to change it, because I wanted to make people think about that whole learning-teaching distinction that is sometimes drawn, and perhaps reply to anyone who objected to my use of 'teach'.

Basically, I would just say, don't believe all you read about teaching doesn't equate to learning. by that I don't mean that teachers are lecturing away like mad, just that they are planning in advance how to guide and often SHOW the students how English works, not leave everything up to the learners to work out for themselves (and listening to a teacher model well-chosen examples etc will OBVIOUSLY give the students a lot (of good stuff) to "work out").

As it is, I think students are being asked to "come up" with things that may or not be worth "working through", sifting. It is all quite random.

I am not a fan of direct teaching, I like indirect methods. But I dislike more or less directly saying to students, 'I won't tell you, you (have to) tell me, go on, teach yourselves why don't you!' (I've said something like that before somewhere), which is what a lot of vague but feel-good activities do.

Sorry, gottta dash. Back tomorrow. :twisted:

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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:11 am

As I said earlier, I might be all wet here, because I know nothing about this Mario guy. However, when you ask a student, "What are you thinking?" 99.999% of the time you get, "Nothin'", or worse, you may get only silence.

But if you ask the student to do some homework, and ask himself, "What am I thinking?" at the moment (s)he flips on a light switch at home...well, that seems to me a different thing altogether. Actually, I thought it was pretty cool. 8) Maybe it can produce something worth exploring.

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:11 am

Heh, I zoomed off to the bank, then called the P.O to find out if they'd hold an undelivered item until tomorrow (wasn't exactly sure what 'until the 15th', ju-go nichi made, meant to a Japanese P.O worker, relieved to find out it meant the same thing as in English :wink:). Life gets hectic when you spend too much time on Dave's. :lol:

I must admit, I actually like silly questions; I don't find Rinvolucri's activity strange or outlandish in a general sense. I can imagine somebody suddenly coming over all hyper-aware at switching on a light and making some kind of remark, thoughtful and considerate if not profound, immediately or sometime after. And I must admit that, as a one-off sort of activity, it could be interesting for students.

It would certainly beat asking them, agreed, a perhaps too very "general" 'What are you thinking?' not that that is what I was suggesting we ask students instead. I was instead just trying to suggest that a more open question, whilst initially appearing boring, could elicit a wider "range" of answers by virtue of its openness (lack of potentially "constraining" stimulus). The "light switch" stimulus might get everybody "thinking", and produce an impressive quantiative result, but I imagine qualitatively, it would be a "different" story "every time" (for those who can't work that out, the light switch stimulus might produce similar answers, as I have said a few times now, hence the fancy phrasing just then :lol: 8) ).

Actually, the whole "What do you think of" thing is done to death, and a lot of the more "emotive" topics that get discussed are either "safe" and/or can't actually be discussed to any serious (heated) level (often due to a lack of enough language, particularly subtle language). If people really do need to have an opinion, it helps if the teacher has a strong(er) one first, or at least knows of "someone" (in reality, the teacher) who has an extreme or stupid viewpoint, that the students can then gleefully lay into (BTW that "burning effigy" trick is one of Lewis's tips). Yeah, that's what I generally like and go for, indirectness OR #$%&*:@+, not always a wishy-washy cosmic harmony and balance of lighter shades of pale or grey (which is what you get if you spin a ying-yang symbol like a top so that all extremes disappear).

"Fun", "easy" activities run the risk of fooling people that English is easy and will always be fun. At the risk of starting to sound like woodcutter, I would say that to really succeed in English requires more than this kind of activity. It takes patience, the sort of patience that can "take" silence and the waiting for a topic to naturally arise or be naturally introduced, without forcing; and at the other extreme, a ready imagination that is "self-starting" and kicks into life just when the conversation seemed about to be pronounced dead, but that knows when to ease off too. Probably MR has those qualities himself, and uses or produces some "serious" materials too, but we aren't made as aware of them. (Perhaps we are meant to simply look elsewhere, maybe everything he offers is just meant to be ancilliary).

Ultimately, a lot of these "alternative" approaches can often end up making perfect sense once you've realized they aren't really that different from the mainstream they purport to be no part of. I mean, they are all so polite and "reasonable", but I bet you wouldn't want to seriously disagree with them to their faces, they'd probably chew your ears off before chasing you down some dark dead end and forcing you to perform all manner of unnatural<<CENSORED SPEECH>>acts.

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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:24 am

Actually, the whole "What do you think of" thing is done to death...
Um, yeah, I'll have to agree with you about this. I was thinking mostly about one-to-one students, so that you (teacher) could have a possibly more genuine than usual conversation...for whatever that may be worth. If you're going to talk with students, it's not very "real" to talk with them about contrived subjects. Each of them has a life, and particular concerns. Sometimes they may not want to talk about their personal concerns, but then, I did find that many of them did too. I was surprised at how many young people told me very personal elements of their lives.

Larry Latham

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Post by woodcutter » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:29 am

Woodcutter, wearing his student hat, would not particularly want to talk about motives towards using lightswitches, especially if humour was frowned upon. That is one reason for his non switch-focused teaching behaviour.

Perhaps students Larry and Duncan would better enjoy being mentally moulded and manipulated by some philosophical foreign chap.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:47 am

I don't mind physical M+M (hmm Foucault!), but I'm not really into the kinky mind games. So tell your foreign friend, sorry, but "no cigar" this time from either Larry or from me. :twisted:

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:59 am

LarryLatham wrote:Perhaps I don't really understand your post, Fluffy, (and in fact I don't quite), and perhaps also I don't understand Rinvolucri's ideas either. But my reading of the light-switch homework suggests that he (rather brilliantly, I think) wants us to ask students to think about what they feel or how they feel at some particular time when they are out of class. The light switch is used merely to mark a point in time, and is not intended to be part of the thinking or feeling of the student. This is much better than to only ask students to think about something they feel strongly about in preparation for the next class. That is too general. Picking a momentary event in everbody's everyday lives is what is brilliant about Rinvolucri's idea. Everyone will flip a switch between one class and the next, and it's at that moment that you ask the student to stop and think about what's in their mind just at that moment.

Am I completely wrong about this?

Larry Latham
No. In fact, you are very right about it. The origin of the exercise comes, as I said, from the work and teachings of the George Gurdjieff Foundation. Gurdjieff and his collaborators fromed the exercise in order to show how we go through our daily lives in a state of subconcious mix of thoughts - which can make us weaker or inefficient. The exercise asked one to walk down the street and to try to be aware of what one is thinking about then to try and think about only one thing between one lampost and the next - to not be distracted by other thoughts or by anything external.

I've tried it many times and I can tell you it is damn difficult.

Mario wanted more to get people to surprise themselves by being aware of a moment when we are, maybe, subconciously running thoughts in our heads and to note those thoughts to be able to relate at a later time.

Often, the thoughts that come out of such an exercise are more interesting than those where the teacher spontaneously asks the student to reflect upon what they were feeling at some time some days before.

The classroom is a place where not only the content of the language studied is important, but also how that language engages one as a student. It has to keep you interested. Some, as Fluff says, may be fascinated and engaged by looking up words in the dictionary and some may be so from exercises such as "the lightswitch". Some may even be fascinated by both "tasks", which is great , as it leads to a very rounded approach to study.

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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:07 pm

Just typing this so you don't get to have the last word, metal.

:lol:

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Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:59 pm

OK, "final" thoughts here: I, and it seems woodcutter, have been dismissive of activities like the :idea: one.

Regardless of whether you believe it is valuable or not (to "help" widen the range of activities in an "absolute" - linguistic?! - sense), or whether you think there should or shouldn't be an indication of what English to expect (from the students) and how that ties in with the whole question of "real English", natural discourse etc, you have to admit that Rinvolucri is not anywhere telling us how high level students or indeed native speakers might view and set about that task (oh, but wait, maybe I'm forgetting that the activity could be mainly meant for the conceptually useful, methodology-wise, ever "intermediate" student, low enough ability-wise to hope they will be learning something in a class, but not advanced enough to realize that not much good is coming from their own efforts to improve upon their existing level of English*).

We can only hope that intermediate students at least will come up with something better than, say, McGonagall's "immortal" The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay (unless humour is not to be frowned upon i.e. is welcome in the classroom, which it doesn't seem to be in so-called "humanistic" ones. They're all so very earnest! As, it seems, McGonagall was - and just look at the levels of literary "excellence" he achieved! :lol: ).

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/pgbridge.htm

* This ties in with sentiments that Atreju has expressed elsewhere - and no, I haven't forgotten about needing to take a look at his tasty sarnies!

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:55 pm

I suppose I am interested in "rhetorical discourse structure" or something like that (don't worry, I just made that term up).

I can accept a teacher saying (in terms of ongoing portion of classroom discourse), 'Okay, what were your thoughts when you turned on your lights over the past few days?', but I am puzzled by how (and obviously why) the teacher initially broached the exercise in the first place. You must admit, to say, 'What do you think when you turn on a light?' in a real conversation would be more likely to elicit a puzzled smile than serious consideration, but in a classroom conversation some teachers seem to find it perfectly acceptable to pose questions like that simply whenever they feel like it (rather than, as I said before, the more natural and open, 'What are you thinking?' or 'What do you think of this Kerry guy/other topical/important topic?'), for no obvious reason (than a nebulous ' to elicit and then work on language').

All very random...maybe these students will do well if the only "conversations" they continue to have are like the one I once saw a former boss have with a good TOEIC student of mine who'd arrived at the school early (seemingly to demonstrate to me how to promote talk in the classroom, we'd had a few chats about what to do with a 'problem' conversation class that seemed to give every teacher it had a hard time, they were "plateaued out" or had simply been there too long, we all seemed to agree):

Boss: When's your birthday?
Student: (gives bithdate)
Boss: Ah, so you're a (star sign)!
Student: ?
Boss: (involved and irrelevant explanation)
Student: (nods patiently)
Boss: What's kind of music do you like?
Student: Rock.
Boss: Why?
Student: It helps me to study.
Boss: How? Why?
Student....
Boss: What do you think when you turn on a light?
Student: ?

Okay, he didn't ask that last question, and the conversation didn't exactly go like that, but Rinvolucri's "key" could've been easily and "unobtrusively" inserted somewhere in the seemingly never-ending barrage of 'Why? Explain yourself!'-style questions. Probably the only difference between my boss's approach and humanistic ones is that the latter adopt a slower, softer "crooning" voice (of the type that Rinvolucri mentions), a "genuine" voice, and picks the "right" moment to "insert the key", drop the bombshell that will "blow the class away". What I want to know, however, is where the genuine language, and discourse behind it, has gone (was there a bomber even fuelled, let alone cruising steadily at 30,000 feet?!). I hope some is to at least be found in the textbook Rinvolucri uses and directs his students to use...

It would be more beneficial to me to just have a conversation like the following:

Teacher: Did you switch off/turn off the lights?
Student: Yes.
Teacher: Thanks.

Ah, but that's after class. Hmm, I wonder what I should do in it...ah, there's a book here called "Grow healthy and strong students from any old compost - 101 secrets of composting recipes and tips!". Hmm...sounds useful! Then again, could just mention lights in an "isn't working, needs..." kind of context. Hmm, what other objects and verbs, and (informing+)requesting action exponents could we look at?

Sounds like boring survival English I know, but them lights are boring if we're honest about them. I'll skip through them quick and try to get onto something more interesting (besides being useful)...

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