similar conditionals

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:46 pm

So you merge the second and third conditionals?

Any past tense except the past perfect. Oddly, you can use the present perfect in the 1st conditional.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:55 pm

Nothing odd at all if you treat the clauses separately, Andrew. Didn't you see my analysis of If- clauses on the previous page?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:29 pm

I don't think that Teacher-Student is Parent-Child but any explanation for learners of any subject is a bit "Mummies and Daddies lie VERY close together and a little seed goes from the Daddies to the Mummies and then a baby is made" *

They go away and use the rule, in this case conditionals as per the numbers , and nobody ever comes back having been exposed to the linguistic equivalent of the Kinsey report and says "Oy! you told me a load of rubbish x years ago"

I don't accept that much damage is done by these "sufficient truths" and that advanced classes are partly "undoing"" what's been taught before.

* That's right, isn't it?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:36 pm

Juan, you should meet my Advanced class. They're forever saying "but my teacher said..." and "Are you sure what you just said is correct because the I thought there were only 4 types of conditional". That's right, some of them think I speak bad English because it doesn't square with what they learned at school.

The damage is done when low level students are led to believe they are being taught the whole truth, rather than a rough approximation which they will have to revise/update as they learn more.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:33 pm

I don't accept that much damage is done by these "sufficient truths"

The problem is that your "sufficeint truths" are neither true nor sufficient.

My analysis would be this, concentrating on the if clause

Your analysis is true but insufficient. There are plenty you have missed;
For example:

If + present continous
a) Real possibility in the present
b) Real possibility in the future

If + present perfect
a) Real possibility in the present
b) Real possibility in the future

If + Past Simple
a) Real possibility in the past

If + Past Perfect
a + b) Real possibility or impossibity in the past with no way of telling from the structure.

If + any modal you want (including 'will' though with a definite semantic overtone)
Rather a lot of meanings.

Now you don't deal with this long list by cutting it down to make tnings easier for the student.

You make things really easier by treating if as any other word.

Because all the possible uses of a verb form are still possible after "if".

You don't treat students to a limited set of verb constructions that can be used after, when, because, and, or but so why do so after if?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:12 pm

Stephen, I'm not sure who "you" is in your last post. However doubtful I may be about the truth of these conditionals by numbers (and I can assure you that I am) we are stuck with them. I interpret the received wisdom of the "zero" for my students in the light of if=when=whenever and the "first" very much in terms of "This is the same as When/Before/After/etc with the present, and will or similar in the main clause, only this time it's "If". It is sufficiently true and truly sufficient to get students started. They don't remember what you said when you let slip the next (half-) truth and not a great deal of harm is done.

You have to remember that many of us are using coursebooks which continue with the convenient fiction of conditionals by numbers, we are often sharing classes with teachers who do the same, we are offering classes in addition to those school classes where the conditionals are taught in this way and you have to choose your battles.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:40 pm

"you" in the sense of people in general.

with the convenient fiction of conditionals by numbers

A fiction, yes, but convenient for who? I would say more of an 'incovenient fiction'.

The fact that we make them understand some types of conditional clauses is neither here nor there. The point is that we can quietly drop the numbered list idea and nobody is going to be any the worse off.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:06 pm

I get the feeling that the problem is not "conditionals by numbers" I've yet to be shown that this is wrong. What's needed is greater generalisation.

Stephen wrote:

You don't treat students to a limited set of verb constructions that can be used after, when, because, and, or but so why do so after if?

One thing that needs to be emphasised is that conditionals are a type of subordonating clause. "And" and "but" are co-ordinating conjunctions so don't work like "if" the others are subordinating and do. I find that when students understand the "big" structures they are able to construct sentences much more easily. I remember once telling some FCE students that "because" acts in the same way as "If": If x,y OR y if x; Because x,y OR y because x. At this they practically demanded a list of subordonating conjunctions because they could see how it affected the big structure of the sentence (would that all my students were as enthusiastic.) Lists may not be very inspiring normally, but now I always give this list.

I know it may a just little off topic, but this need for big structures was why I posted "dividing up the middle"
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... t=dividing that has so far received zero replies.

Going back to conditionals, I always tell my students about other conditional conjunctions, and rather than presenting the conditionals as "will" and "would" generalise it to "proximal" and "remote" modal emphasising that it's all to do with psychological distance.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:53 am

fluffyhamster wrote: I guess people once-bitten by the mainstream training institutes have to shop around and find a better alternative.

Go shopping.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:57 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:
I don't accept that much damage is done by these "sufficient truths" and that advanced classes are partly "undoing"" what's been taught before.

* That's right, isn't it?

Why have to undo at all? Just teach well. And, if you are going to teach "sufficient truths", tell the students so. Try to cut down on the excuse use of the word "exception", etc., etc.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:01 am

lolwhites wrote:Juan, you should meet my Advanced class. They're forever saying "but my teacher said..." and "Are you sure what you just said is correct because the I thought there were only 4 types of conditional". That's right, some of them think I speak bad English because it doesn't square with what they learned at school.

The damage is done when low level students are led to believe they are being taught the whole truth, rather than a rough approximation which they will have to revise/update as they learn more.

I totally sympathise with you. It pisses me off when teachers, who have only just realised that they've spent the last few years in error, deny that many poorly taught students get even more confused and mistrusting as they reach Advanced levels.

Just pisses me off. At least those teacher could admit their contribution to the mess that appears later.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:13 am

metal56 wrote:
lolwhites wrote:
The damage is done when low level students are led to believe they are being taught the whole truth, rather than a rough approximation which they will have to revise/update as they learn more.
...At least those teacher could admit their contribution to the mess that appears later.

Well, I suppose I'm as guilty as the next in terms of making things "easier" by not allowing for a full explanation at the lower levels. However, I will admit to explaining to my class that they were getting the watered-down version that was appropriate to their level, and that they'd have to be ready to revise the rules they *thought* they knew when they learned more.

In fact, I managed to get into an unplanned lecture on that very subject yesterday, at the very end of class, just before the spring vacation started. Well, I had five extra minutes....Anyway, I told them an example was when teachers tell their students, "You can't have two past in a sentence," meaning that you can't say, "Did he went?" but you should say "Did he go?" I told them I've had students say to me that the sentence, "He went to the store and bought a book." is incorrect because it has two past words in it. I told them they have to be careful when thinking a "rule" is complete, and have to be open to making changes as they learn more.

I don't really know what else to do. I've been reading Lewis, little by little, and while I agree with what he says, I'm in the in-between phase of not really knowing it well enough to use it much yet, but realizing that not using it isn't helping either. Until I become more comfortable and decide whether or not to use some of it in my explanations, I will feel I am doing an inadequate job, but what choice do I have? I can't really take a break from teaching until I have decided how to use it.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:14 am

Stephen Jones wrote:
with the convenient fiction of conditionals by numbers
A fiction, yes, but convenient for who? quote]

Publishers and booksellers

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:25 am

Lorikeet - At the risk of spoiling the end for you, the last thing Lewis says in The English Verb is "I can think of nothing more unsatisfactorythan that teachers should take the explanations offered in this book and present them to their students." What he advocates is making a clear distinction between "rules" and "hints"; the latter being an explanation that will do until the student is at a higher level. However people might feel about Lewis's explanations, I think we can all agree that the rule/hint distinction would be good practice.

I have actually used Lewis's explanations but only with students of a very high level. Since reading it 8 years ago, I've avoided some of the more crass overgeneralisations that plagued my early teaching ("there are 4 conditionals/will is the future tense/here is a list of verbs not used in the Present Continous....

). My only excuse is that a one month Cert course barely scratches the surface and I just wasn't prepared for the job.

Stephen - you are absolutely right in pointing out that my list wasn't exhaustive. I was hoping to make some useful distinctions while trying to avoid an excessively long post that people would just scroll through without reading.

Metal - thanks for the supportive comments. Sometimes I feel like a builder who's been called to fix up a house that some cowboy operator has bodged. The difference is that in this case the residents defend the dodgy builder who left their house unfit for habitation and resist my attempts to put things right. I could understand if their former teachers had all been CELTA newbies rather than professional schoolteachers trained and paid for by taxpayers.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:50 am

lolwhites wrote:I have actually used Lewis's explanations but only with students of a very high level. Since reading it 8 years ago, I've avoided some of the more crass overgeneralisations that plagued my early teaching ("there are 4 conditionals/will is the future tense/here is a list of verbs not used in the Present Continous.... ). My only excuse is that a one month Cert course barely scratches the surface and I just wasn't prepared for the job.

**EXTREME SHOCK**

It might be better if you posted that sort of thing on the following thread, lolwhites!
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=2719

We'd then be better prepared for the **EXTREME SHOCK** the confession causes.

Either way, it's nice for us to see how far you've come, realize that you've developed so much!

Newbie teachers who give a damn and want to do the best for their students, take note!