Who made the children some sandwiches?

[mrandmrsjohnqsmith]

Who made the children some sandwiches?

Does this look weird to you? it does to me. It's from Book 5 of the old Modern English series, made specifically for teaching English grammar to Japanese people. In many respects it's a pretty effective series; I've seen once-a-week adults go from beginner to a simple conversational level in a matter of years with no travel and no homework. But anyway, here's the question I'd like to put out there:
After telling my student I thought "Who made the children sandwiches?" was more appropriate, my student wanted to know why she couldn't say "Who made the children any sandwiches?" Her reasoning was that she was taught in school to use "any" in questions, ie. "Are there any sandwiches?"
My student is one who always asks "why," and I prefer doing what I can to satisfy her thirst for knowledge to merely telling her to memorize it and referring her to the God of English if she feels like asking why.
What's the rule? I'm at a loss. Why do we say, "Who made the children sandwiches," instead of "Who made the children any sandwiches?"

...and only as a side note, does "Who made the children some sandwiches" sound strange to you?

[woodcutter]

Mr and Mrs Smith, we do not swallow whole the rules we see in our ESL textbooks. They are there to provide a general guideline for foreigners. Many over idealistic teachers object to the lack of truth in them, but perhaps the biggest problem is that even the teachers sometimes wholeheartedly believe them!

We use "any" to emphasize that, regarding the type of thing to which we are referring, is does not matter which one. Therefore while it is natural in most questions and negatives, it does not fit when we are asking about a particular plate of sarnies.

Nothing wrong with that question by the way.

I wish you a long and happy marriage!

[Stephen Jones]

With regard to this particular usage, we use 'any' when we are not affirming the existence of the sandwiches, and 'some' when we are
We don't have any sandwiches.
Do we have any sandwiches?

Note that in the interrogative we can use 'some' or any because it is reasonable to enquire about something that exists, and just as reasonable to use the term that leaves its existence in limbo until the question is resolved.
Do we have some/any sandwiches?

Now if the sandwiches clearly do exist (that is do say interrogation does not affect the existence of the sandwiches), then we must use 'some'. Both
*Would you like any sandwiches?
and
*Who made the children any sandwiches?
are clearly incorrect.

[lolwhites]

Now if the sandwiches clearly do exist (that is do say interrogation does not affect the existence of the sandwiches), then we must use 'some'. Both
*Would you like any sandwiches?
and
*Who made the children any sandwiches?
are clearly incorrect.

In my mind, Would you like any sandwiches? and Would you like some sandwiches? are both fine. *Who made the children any sandwiches is a big no no.

The "Some for positive, any for negative and interrogative" rule is one of the biggest loads of bullsh*t to persist in coursebooks today- the difference between the two is semantic, not grammatical. It's a shame some teachers still persist in teaching the "rule" when it's actually quite easy to show the difference, even to a low level multilingual class.

[Stephen Jones]

I need some more coffee in the mornng - any coffee!

I would edit the post, as lolwhites has a good point, but the software on the forum is so crappy that you have to log in twenty times to do it.

So I'll put the amended version here.

Now if the sandwiches clearly do exist (that is do say interrogation does not affect the existence of the sandwiches), then we must use 'some'.
?Would you like any sandwiches?
is most unusual and
*Who made the children any sandwiches?
is clearly incorrect.

The BNC has sixty-three entries for 'Would you like some' and only one 'Would you like any'. Interestingly enough the one example it gives for 'any' is
Would you like any help?
which seems fine to me; the reason I suspect is that the other distinction between specific and non-specific comes into play, and the person offering help does not really know exactly what kind of help is necessary.

[lolwhites]

I would edit the post, as lolwhites has a good point, but the software on the forum is so crappy that you have to log in twenty times to do it.

And my post would make no sense

[Stephen Jones]

The "Some for positive, any for negative and interrogative" rule is one of the biggest loads of bullsh*t to persist in coursebooks today- the difference between the two is semantic, not grammatical.

It is certainly the predictive rule of thumb that soonest comes up against examples it doesn't make the correct prediction for.

If people were taught that both some and any could be used for the interrogative and that some is used when the existence is not called into doubt and 'any' is normally used when it is, the rule would cover most cases.

Certainly 'are there any' is 40 times more common than 'are there some' and 'is there any' 15 times more common than 'is there some'.

Could you perhaps explain the difference you see between semantic and grammatical difference in this case.

[JuanTwoThree]

I'm sure "Who made the children any sandwiches?" could be said if the speaker was ridiculing the idea that any sandwiches had been made at all. Like "Who drank any beer at the party? Go on, name one person!" Which is entirely consistent with the previous post, of course.

[revel]

Hey all!

Here's how I personally impose confusion on my students!

Please consider "some" as an unspecified quantity. When you use "some" in a sentence (in the article slot), you mean that whatever follows exists in a quantity that you are not specifying.

"There's some koolaid on the table."
"There're some sandwiches next to the koolaid."

Likewise, when you use "some" in a question, you are implying (semantics?¿) that you expect that there is an unspecified quantity of whatever follows.

"Would you like some koolaid?" (there is some available)
"Would you like me to bring some sandwiches?" (although I haven't any made yet, I will make them if you want them, so I myself consider them made....)

"Any" is a wild-card word. It's a negative non-specified quantity. It's useful in negative sentences, since we need a word in the article slot but we can't use a negative word like "no" since the verb has already been made negative with "not".

"There aren't any sandwiches made yet."

Since we are saying that "sandwiches" don't yet exist, it's not very wise to use "some" in that sentence, as "some" representes an existing, non-specified quantity.

"Any" appearing in questions also reflects this "negative unspecified quantity" concept, as when we use "any" in a question we are also communicating that we have no idea if the the noun following "any" exists.

"Is there any koolaid in the fridge?" (I have no idea if you've made a pitcher of pink-water-sugar-beverage) vs "Is there some koolaid in the fridge?" (there was some earlier, but you might have finished it off, so I hope you've made another pitcher!)

Considering that the "question/negative/affirmation" rule is always accompanied by some short exercise in which this rule is then applied without demonstrating "exceptions", the rule serves to get the exercise done, and even to answer correctly on the test at the end of the term. When the exercise or linguistic experience bumps into the "real" use of "some" and "any", one simply has to explain to students that learning a language is a gradual, life-long process and that what they might have learned earlier will naturally have to be expanded upon later. (That is, at least, better than simply saying "English is like that!")

peace,
revel.

[lolwhites]

I agree pretty much with Revel's analysis; as a rule of thumb I say "use some if you can substitute a quantity without substantially changing the meaning".

Insofar as the original questions goes, Who made some sandwiches for the children? sounds odd to me because I have a picture in my head of a plate of sandwiches and the speaker wants to find out who made them; as that would be a specific plate, I'd expect the sandwiches as it's definite.

Having said that, I can think of some contexts where it might be OK:

A: Michael Jackson made some sandwiches for the children.
B: WHO made some sandwiches for the children?

or if you didn't hear properly the first time.

[mrandmrsjohnqsmith]

Thanks to all who chimed in. I basically have what I'm looking for in that we use "any" when we are not confirming the existence of sandwiches.
My gratitude to all who took their time and contributed their thoughts.
You're making the world a...um...a more...English...place.

[Andrew Patterson]

The "Some for positive, any for negative and interrogative" rule is one of the biggest loads of bullsh*t to persist in coursebooks today- the difference between the two is semantic, not grammatical. It's a shame some teachers still persist in teaching the "rule" when it's actually quite easy to show the difference, even to a low level multilingual class.

I hate the way that "any" is first emphasised for questions in many textbooks and then "some" is introduced as "an exception" with offers. (which of course can also be made with "any".) Personally, I say that "some" is used for positive amounts and "any for uncertain or zero amounts; and that this use extends to their use as prefixes.

[Stephen Jones]

then "some" is introduced as "an exception" with offers. (which of ocourse can also be made with "any".)

Doiing more searching on Google I find the relationship between "Would you like some" and "Would you like any" is about 3 to 1 instead of the 63 to 1 the BNC gives.

Using "do you want any/some" gets a ration of 2 to 1 in favour of some both on Google and the BNC.

So 'any' can be restored in 'offers', though the British seem to shun it with "would you like".

and that this use extends to their use as prefixes.

Nope. Depends a lot on context. 'Anybody can do this' is very different from 'somebody can do this'.

[lolwhites]

It makes perfect sense to me that Would you like some... is more common than Would you like any.... In the context of offering food or drink, I'm probably thinking of a quantity already e.g. a cup of coffee, a handful of crisps or whatever. As it's a "restricted" amount, some comes more naturally.

Does anyone else see a difference in meaning between Would you like some help? and Would you like any help? For me, the former suggests I can see that someone needs help (so I have a certain "amount" of help in mind) while the other is more open/uncertain and I'm less likely to expect the answer "yes".

[woodcutter]

There is a special place in hell where teachers who refuse to adhere to the most basic tenet of language teaching - simplify to make things understandable - are forced to study Native American languages with a fierce chief who insists on going into the whole truth and nothing but the truth right from the gun.

The "negatives and questions" explanation is very easy to give - one can almost do it without using words. That's why it's the best way to begin. Isn't it amazing how many people "explain" in language far harder than the language being studied at the time?