right on the track?

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Seiichi MYOGA
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right on the track?

Post by Seiichi MYOGA » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:37 pm

Do you agree that the "so-that" clause in (1a) means a manner as shown in (1b) but not a purpose?


(1) a. He arranged the accident so that he could fake his own death.
b. He arranged the accident in a way that made it possible for him to fake his own death.

Thank you in advance
Seiichi MYOGA

Based on this from OALD (6th ed.):
He arranged the accident in order to fake his own death.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:02 am

How about, He faked the accident in order to arrange his death? :twisted:

I am not sure what you mean by 'a manner' versus 'a purpose' - the guy in all three sentences wants to fake his death (in a n-ing accident), and faking the accident makes it possible that the um, fakery will succeed in fooling whoever, towards whichever ends (purposes) that he desires.

In fact, it is the ends, the reasons for the faking, that would be the more interesting thing to relate:

He faked his death (in a boating accident) in order to/so that he could avoid prosecution for faking his death twice previously (in an industrial hoovering, and then a hamster-feeding, accident).

Seiichi MYOGA
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Post by Seiichi MYOGA » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:05 am

Dear fluffyhamster,

I appreciate your help and comments.

I seem to have had a wrong idea for the verb "arrange."

Without context, you will interpret the "so-that" clause as meaning manner or how the action was carried out.

(2) She spoke so that I could follow her.

In other words, (2) will be the answer to (3b) rather than (3a).

(3) a. Why did she speak?
b. How did she speak?

I had wrongly equated the dependent clause in (1) with the kind of (2).

Seiichi MYOGA

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:34 am

Um, er...yes!

:lol:

:wink:

mrandmrsjohnqsmith
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Post by mrandmrsjohnqsmith » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:06 am

Literally, "so that" would mean something like "in a manner that makes it possible for," I think.
However, sentences like (1a) usually imply purpose or intent.
In this case, in which a man has arranged an accident in a manner that made it possible for him to fake his own death, we assume that purpose also exists. We automatically assume that the purpose of the arrangement was for a faked death, and that the man's intent was to fake his own death. The assumption occurs unconsciously and automatically in the common use of "so that." In addition, there is no other logical explanation for such an arrangement.
It does sound like the kind of thing that would be debated in a court of law, though.
Lawyer for the defense: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I strongly urge you to consider the simple fact that whether my client arranged the accident so that he could fake his own death or not is irrelevant. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was his purpose, or the purpose of the arrangement, to, in actuality, fake his own death. My client is an experimental artist...yeah, that's it...obsessed with his own death, and this was merely his way of attempting to come to terms with his obsession. Twisted? Perhaps. In need of psychological help? Probably. But a criminal? Guilty of fraud? No, my friends! My client is the victim of deranged society made cynical by the horrors we see everyday, the very same demons which my client was trying to exorcise when he developed this innocent project."

The thing to bear in mind is that, even if you can correctly say that "so that" literally means "in a way that makes it possible for," and doesn't literally mean purpose, purpose is almost always implied, and you will most likely be implying purpose if you do use "so that" in such a manner.

In fact, I am at a loss to think of a sentence in which "so that" does not imply purpose. I tried to think of a sentence involving some involuntary action or force of nature, ie:

The tree fell so that we could not use the road.
or
Sam crouched so that his keys fell out of his pocket.

But these sentences don't work for me. They still seem to imply purpose. The first sentence seems to either personify the tree, or to imply that the falling of the tree was a deliberate act of God. The second seems to suggest that Sam wanted his keys to fall.

Can anybody think of a sentence using "so that" in this manner that does not imply purpose?

mrandmrsjohnqsmith
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Post by mrandmrsjohnqsmith » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:27 am

Seiichi MYOGA wrote: (2) She spoke so that I could follow her.

In other words, (2) will be the answer to (3b) rather than (3a).

(3) a. Why did she speak?
b. How did she speak?

Seiichi MYOGA
---------------------------------------

I'd say that (2) would be the answer to (3b).
However, (2) is the answer to BOTH (3b) and (3a).
I certainly hope you are not composing a test. If you are planning to put this question on a test, I strongly urge you to abandon this test question. First of all, as I just said, both answers are correct. Second of all, it is of very little consequence.
But I'll say it again. Until someone can prove me wrong (by all means, two heads are better than one), I'm sticking with my assertion that "so that," as it is used in the manner in question, means BOTH, "in a manner that allows" literally, and "for the purpose of" semantically. One is not less than the other. I cannot think of a single sentence using "so that" in this way that contains only one of the two meanings, and not both. "Purpose" is always involved, (unless someone can demonstrate otherwise) therefore so is intent, and so "in a manner that allows" naturally follows.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:48 am

I've got one eye on this thread and one on the staffroom here at the school I'm based at, so apologies if I don't seem to be saying much of any consequence.

Interesting posts, mrandmrsbradandangelinasmithereens. I myself would plump for (2) as being more the answer to (3a) than (3b) (latter doesn't seem "adverbially" enough) - did you actually mean to type '(2) would be the answer to (3a)'? (trying to figure out the thrust of your 'I'd say that...' preface there). And what about 'He arranged the accident to fake his own death'? :twisted: But as you say, no need to get our knickers in a twist over this "one" (even if I felt that there was more - or less i.e. a conciser way to explain things - to say, I'm feeling kinda lazy lately due to brain working even less well than usual).

mrandmrsjohnqsmith
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Post by mrandmrsjohnqsmith » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:40 am

Um...
After reading your post, I was tempted to edit mine, because I definitely think that (2) would be the answer to (3a), though I still think they are both feasibly correct. But I'm not going to edit it, because I can't recall why I said it, and I may have meant that it was my first inclination to choose (3b) because I was trying too hard to think about the sentence analytically. Or it may have been a typo.

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