I discussed this with an Iranian doctor last week. She hired an interpreter she met at a hospital to teach her English. The interpreter is a friend of mine with no professional background in medicine.
I asked her why she didn't pick another woman I know who is an RN and speaks better English. She had initially hired the RN. The RN kept trying to teach her medicine instead of English.
She hired the other Farsi-English interpreter, whose knowledge of medicine comes from being the parent of a very sick child. This doctor is well liked by American patients because she listens to and understands her patients.
She said what many fail to see in this discussion is that the professional medical community MUST communicate to laymen. If you are teaching ESL to a researcher who never contacts patients it may require a health care professional to teach ESL/ESP.
If you are teaching ESP to a DOCTOR who treats patients you are probably speaking like a patient not another doctor. And this is what doctors do: they treat people who are NOT medical professionals all of the time. They do it without teaching them medical English. They see hundreds of patients every year who are not medical professionals. If they learn only medical English what are they to do with it?
Doctors who treat patients do not need to learn medicine if they don't speak English. They need medical English to communicate only with their peers. This they can learn from their peers, well-educated medical professionals who are used to taking colloquial English and translating into medical language.
She pointed out that communicating with her peers is something she could only learn from her peers. She had to learn lab orders specific to her clinic. She had to learn to fill out imaging orders specific to her clinic. How to speak to different pharmacists (internal and outside). All of these specific to her clinic. The RN teaching her English did not know any of this. Every clinic and hospital she worked at required new training by new staff.
Foreign doctors need to learn the English that laymen speak to their doctors. Because if they don't understand their patients they will have nothing to communicate to their colleagues.
Nurses and other health care workers who don't contact the publish much may be in a different position.
This is something to consider.
Medical ESP - Denists, Doctors
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
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tigertiger
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Good point Katia, the approriate discourse is important. I am assuming that the SRN was not an ESL/EFL teacher.
On the lexis, it is also important to have a wide knowledge of how the lay people might describe symptoms/ailments. And the situational language that might occur.
A former medical practitioner would be able to get to this much more quickly than the person without the background. Even a former hospital porter could do this well.
A cute example of 'a bun in the oven' was given earlier.
My wicked head
is having a field day with 'stool sample' 
Like most ESP I think a good teacher can do it better than a non teacher, but a teacher with a background in the relevant field can do it much better.
On the lexis, it is also important to have a wide knowledge of how the lay people might describe symptoms/ailments. And the situational language that might occur.
A former medical practitioner would be able to get to this much more quickly than the person without the background. Even a former hospital porter could do this well.
A cute example of 'a bun in the oven' was given earlier.
My wicked head
is having a field day with 'stool sample' Like most ESP I think a good teacher can do it better than a non teacher, but a teacher with a background in the relevant field can do it much better.
The Teacher
Thank you for your reply. It is not a valid study, of course. It is something that may lead to thought and eventually fruitful considerations.
The RN, though, is an ESL teacher with a certificate in ESL and a Master's degree in something language related, not nursing and not ESL.
Someone else mentioned this, that we're not trying to teach the person their subject, just the use of the nomenclature in English.
It probably does not apply to most other fields, nor to all aspects of health care.
Yet a doctor who learns ESP for Medicine may be unable to communicate well to her patients.
This doctor was very insulted by the RN, though. Some of the things she did put her outside the realm of health professionals teaching ESP. Maybe there were cultural issues at play also.
Still, it is something of interest to consider. What does a foreign practitioner need to learn to practice medicine or other health careers effectively and safely, having learned ESL?
It may be a matter of level of fluency, too. English is a more variable and potentially less precise language. It's easy to say nothing with meaning and mean something while saying nothing in English.
The RN, though, is an ESL teacher with a certificate in ESL and a Master's degree in something language related, not nursing and not ESL.
Someone else mentioned this, that we're not trying to teach the person their subject, just the use of the nomenclature in English.
It probably does not apply to most other fields, nor to all aspects of health care.
Yet a doctor who learns ESP for Medicine may be unable to communicate well to her patients.
This doctor was very insulted by the RN, though. Some of the things she did put her outside the realm of health professionals teaching ESP. Maybe there were cultural issues at play also.
Still, it is something of interest to consider. What does a foreign practitioner need to learn to practice medicine or other health careers effectively and safely, having learned ESL?
It may be a matter of level of fluency, too. English is a more variable and potentially less precise language. It's easy to say nothing with meaning and mean something while saying nothing in English.
The language of patients and the language of professionals
Hello, everyone!
I have enjoyed the discussions recently re: an English-speaking RN teaching a medical person, etc. I am hoping that what has been said about her crossing some professional boundary through her behaviour is an anomaly. Perhaps you are right: it was a cultural blunder.
Regarding the needs of the health care provider, I have developed my workbooks and courses from the viewpoint of a Nursing Educator here in Canada who has worked with doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and other health professionals who are trying to immigrate to North America. I am well-suited, as you can imagine, to see both sides of the language-learning needs. There are legal requirments for registration to practice the profession that have English competency standards to meet. There are, as the discussion has been noting other situations in which medical personnel must also deal with: (a) each other, (b) the multidisciplinary team of professionals, (c) the non-professional members of the staff, (d) patients, (e) families, (f) resources, referrals and adjunct departments all in the service of providing excellent care to people. That is why I like to refer to my own work as 'career-specific' English language training. I believe I cover as many of these factors as possible in my curricula.
I believe it is an error to think that teaching medical English is simply teaching medical terminology. I think as we read through this thread, we can see that nothing is that simple. ESP is complex. Curriculum and lesson design need to be comprehensive not just in reading, writing, speaking and listening, but also in truly understanding the needs of the student: to go to work and function safely and competently in the new language. I also believe it is an error to simply teach doctors how to read and write academic journals. This may help with visibility on the world stage but I wonder for whom this is a goal? I know, for example that China is extremely interested in this latter direction, but I am frankly at a loss to understand how helpful it is as they begin international exchanges of medical practitioners. How will the doctors speak to each other in the English-speaking country?
Well, these are just a few of my thoughts. As always, I look forward to the responses and any feedback you might care to give.
Best regards from Canada!
Melodie Hull
I have enjoyed the discussions recently re: an English-speaking RN teaching a medical person, etc. I am hoping that what has been said about her crossing some professional boundary through her behaviour is an anomaly. Perhaps you are right: it was a cultural blunder.
Regarding the needs of the health care provider, I have developed my workbooks and courses from the viewpoint of a Nursing Educator here in Canada who has worked with doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and other health professionals who are trying to immigrate to North America. I am well-suited, as you can imagine, to see both sides of the language-learning needs. There are legal requirments for registration to practice the profession that have English competency standards to meet. There are, as the discussion has been noting other situations in which medical personnel must also deal with: (a) each other, (b) the multidisciplinary team of professionals, (c) the non-professional members of the staff, (d) patients, (e) families, (f) resources, referrals and adjunct departments all in the service of providing excellent care to people. That is why I like to refer to my own work as 'career-specific' English language training. I believe I cover as many of these factors as possible in my curricula.
I believe it is an error to think that teaching medical English is simply teaching medical terminology. I think as we read through this thread, we can see that nothing is that simple. ESP is complex. Curriculum and lesson design need to be comprehensive not just in reading, writing, speaking and listening, but also in truly understanding the needs of the student: to go to work and function safely and competently in the new language. I also believe it is an error to simply teach doctors how to read and write academic journals. This may help with visibility on the world stage but I wonder for whom this is a goal? I know, for example that China is extremely interested in this latter direction, but I am frankly at a loss to understand how helpful it is as they begin international exchanges of medical practitioners. How will the doctors speak to each other in the English-speaking country?
Well, these are just a few of my thoughts. As always, I look forward to the responses and any feedback you might care to give.
Best regards from Canada!
Melodie Hull
Academic Journals
Doctors read and publish in academic journals extensively. In particular specialist practitioners must read the medical literature to stay current in their field.
Foreign doctors practicing in the USA will be expected to discuss the latest articles in JAMA in NEJM with their colleagues and will learn new information about prescribing drugs or new uses from these journals. While abstracts are available in other languages it will not substitute for reading the articles.
It is surprising to hear that you think reading professional literature in such a complex and changing field is only to "help with visibility on the world stage."
This may be an aspect of writing and publishing for doctors in academia, but all doctors must keep on top of their profession, to learn about complications with Vioxx, certain types of heart valves, reasons for prescribing or not prescribing hormones to women. Getting the knowledge first-hand from the source, NEJM, JAMA, Lancet is how leading doctors do this. Then, when fully informed, they can make medical decisions with their patients.
Foreign doctors practicing in the USA will be expected to discuss the latest articles in JAMA in NEJM with their colleagues and will learn new information about prescribing drugs or new uses from these journals. While abstracts are available in other languages it will not substitute for reading the articles.
It is surprising to hear that you think reading professional literature in such a complex and changing field is only to "help with visibility on the world stage."
This may be an aspect of writing and publishing for doctors in academia, but all doctors must keep on top of their profession, to learn about complications with Vioxx, certain types of heart valves, reasons for prescribing or not prescribing hormones to women. Getting the knowledge first-hand from the source, NEJM, JAMA, Lancet is how leading doctors do this. Then, when fully informed, they can make medical decisions with their patients.
medical journals
Hi, Katia:
Nice to hear from you, again. No, no... I wasn't insinuating there isn't any value in learning to read an academic journal. Good Heavens, as a nurse I read them, too to keep abreast of new techniques, medications, and research. Absolutely. What I was attempting to say was that there is MORE to teaching Medical English than simply using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course. I believe that is much too limiting. Your thoughts?
Melodie
PS: I got the comment about 'the world stage' from some professors in China in 2004 and we had quite the interesting discussion about this. I don't think I can accept the blame for coming up with that position.
MH
Nice to hear from you, again. No, no... I wasn't insinuating there isn't any value in learning to read an academic journal. Good Heavens, as a nurse I read them, too to keep abreast of new techniques, medications, and research. Absolutely. What I was attempting to say was that there is MORE to teaching Medical English than simply using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course. I believe that is much too limiting. Your thoughts?
Melodie
PS: I got the comment about 'the world stage' from some professors in China in 2004 and we had quite the interesting discussion about this. I don't think I can accept the blame for coming up with that position.
MH
I would agree with Melodie and I think that while it is important for medical professionals to stay well informed through medical journals and be able to communicate with their peers accordingly, the need to communicate delicate matters carefully to patients is also important.
I find that with most medical professionals here in Japan that they have no problem with the medical terms but they can't put them together to make sentences (generalization.) When preparing them to go abroad, we must spend a great deal of time simply on conversational skills. Even preparing them for speaking with English speakers or non-native English speakers here in Japan, one of the biggest problems the medical professionals face is simply getting the information across. In this case they don't need to hold themselves up as educated and competent, but really need to be understood.
So, again, I agree with what Melodie is saying. EMP teachers need to place at least equal focus on general communication and English competency as well as medical terminology when teaching English to medical professionals.
Mark Cox, R.Ph.
www.hospitalenglish.com
I find that with most medical professionals here in Japan that they have no problem with the medical terms but they can't put them together to make sentences (generalization.) When preparing them to go abroad, we must spend a great deal of time simply on conversational skills. Even preparing them for speaking with English speakers or non-native English speakers here in Japan, one of the biggest problems the medical professionals face is simply getting the information across. In this case they don't need to hold themselves up as educated and competent, but really need to be understood.
So, again, I agree with what Melodie is saying. EMP teachers need to place at least equal focus on general communication and English competency as well as medical terminology when teaching English to medical professionals.
Mark Cox, R.Ph.
www.hospitalenglish.com
Dear Mark:
Thanks for your support. I always enjoy this dialogue because it is hugely beneficial, I think for all teachers working in Medical English to share their philosophies about teaching the material.
I enjoyed a peek at your website. Very interesting. I, too have some contacts teaching nursing/medical English in Japan at the universities. Please visit my websites at www.nursingesl.com and www.e4on.ca .
Bye for now...
Melodie Hull
Nurse-Educator & Consultant
Canada
Thanks for your support. I always enjoy this dialogue because it is hugely beneficial, I think for all teachers working in Medical English to share their philosophies about teaching the material.
I enjoyed a peek at your website. Very interesting. I, too have some contacts teaching nursing/medical English in Japan at the universities. Please visit my websites at www.nursingesl.com and www.e4on.ca .
Bye for now...
Melodie Hull
Nurse-Educator & Consultant
Canada
Melodie - Thanks for taking a look at the site. It's not really ready as you may have noticed. I'm putting it together and hope to start using it and the resources when classes start back up in May.
I've been to your sites before looking for course books for the nursing college I work at, but running through the demos, I realized they were way above most of the Ss I teach. I have a lot of false beginners, as well as some pretty advanced students. The Dean and directors of the hospital asked me to focus more on daily conversation and getting the students to feel comfortable speaking. So.... I'm still at a loss for an appropriate course book.
Thus, Hospital English.com!
Once I get a few disease state directors (DSD) up, I'd love to get your comments/suggestions. It was said earlier that we're not (necessarily) here to teach them about medicine but how to talk about it in English. I totally agree and hope that what I offer to the EMP community is just that. The plan for the DSD is 4 parts: general disease overview, information for the patient about the disease, medication overview, and counseling information about the medication for the patient. The biggest problem I'm having is keeping them short enough to be conversational activities. Also, as a pharmacist, these (the 4 parts) are the most important things I feel they need to be able to talk about, but please let me know if you think I'm missing something.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
I've been to your sites before looking for course books for the nursing college I work at, but running through the demos, I realized they were way above most of the Ss I teach. I have a lot of false beginners, as well as some pretty advanced students. The Dean and directors of the hospital asked me to focus more on daily conversation and getting the students to feel comfortable speaking. So.... I'm still at a loss for an appropriate course book.
Thus, Hospital English.com!Once I get a few disease state directors (DSD) up, I'd love to get your comments/suggestions. It was said earlier that we're not (necessarily) here to teach them about medicine but how to talk about it in English. I totally agree and hope that what I offer to the EMP community is just that. The plan for the DSD is 4 parts: general disease overview, information for the patient about the disease, medication overview, and counseling information about the medication for the patient. The biggest problem I'm having is keeping them short enough to be conversational activities. Also, as a pharmacist, these (the 4 parts) are the most important things I feel they need to be able to talk about, but please let me know if you think I'm missing something.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Last edited by mesmark on Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not Enough Information
"Absolutely. What I was attempting to say was that there is MORE to teaching Medical English than simply using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course. I believe that is much too limiting. Your thoughts?"
Please tell me about "teaching Medical English ... using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course?"
More information is needed. What is the purpose of the course?
"Teaching Medical English" is too broad and the course description too limited to have any thoughts.
Please tell me about "teaching Medical English ... using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course?"
More information is needed. What is the purpose of the course?
"Teaching Medical English" is too broad and the course description too limited to have any thoughts.
Hi, KatiaM:
Take a look at this website for the International Symposium of English for Medical Purposes at which I was one of many speakers in 2004....
http://unit.xjtu.edu.cn/unit/yyb/emp/Ab ... erence.htm
Let me quote the 'Topics'
"Papers are invited to present the latest developments and ideas in medical foreign language teaching and research. The following topics are particularly welcome:
1) Teaching and research of English for Medical Purposes
2) Designing and reforming of syllabus for English for Medical Purposes
3) Using and editing of English textbooks for medical graduates in China
4) Translation practice and theory in English for Medical Purposes
5) Reforming of teaching English for Medical Purposes in medical schools
6) Linguistics in teaching and research of English for Medical Purposes
7) Methodology and pedagogy in teaching English for Medical Purposes"
This is the kind of thing I was referring to. The speakers at the conference were all linguists, except for 3 of us. 90% did not have any contact with anyone in the health professions. Their syllabus' were limited to abstracts, journals and terminology ONLY. The purpose of these courses is to have Asian doctors speak at conferences and publish papers in academic journals ONLY.
Here is another example from the worldwide web describing what this company thinks about the subject 'teaching medical English' as it markets itself to ESL teachers ...
"Course Content:
An introduction and overview of what Medical English is, who your target students are, and the process of teaching Legal English.
Methods and approaches to teaching Medical English.
Medical English terminology and how to teach Medical English terminology acquisition skills.
Examination and evaluation of medical case studies.
Developing Medical English materials.
Developing Medical English courses.
Medical grammar. "
Does this help our discussion?
Melodie
Take a look at this website for the International Symposium of English for Medical Purposes at which I was one of many speakers in 2004....
http://unit.xjtu.edu.cn/unit/yyb/emp/Ab ... erence.htm
Let me quote the 'Topics'
"Papers are invited to present the latest developments and ideas in medical foreign language teaching and research. The following topics are particularly welcome:
1) Teaching and research of English for Medical Purposes
2) Designing and reforming of syllabus for English for Medical Purposes
3) Using and editing of English textbooks for medical graduates in China
4) Translation practice and theory in English for Medical Purposes
5) Reforming of teaching English for Medical Purposes in medical schools
6) Linguistics in teaching and research of English for Medical Purposes
7) Methodology and pedagogy in teaching English for Medical Purposes"
This is the kind of thing I was referring to. The speakers at the conference were all linguists, except for 3 of us. 90% did not have any contact with anyone in the health professions. Their syllabus' were limited to abstracts, journals and terminology ONLY. The purpose of these courses is to have Asian doctors speak at conferences and publish papers in academic journals ONLY.
Here is another example from the worldwide web describing what this company thinks about the subject 'teaching medical English' as it markets itself to ESL teachers ...
"Course Content:
An introduction and overview of what Medical English is, who your target students are, and the process of teaching Legal English.
Methods and approaches to teaching Medical English.
Medical English terminology and how to teach Medical English terminology acquisition skills.
Examination and evaluation of medical case studies.
Developing Medical English materials.
Developing Medical English courses.
Medical grammar. "
Does this help our discussion?
Melodie
Dear Mark:
I do have a suggestion for your 'beginners'. I have a new course for sale, Basic English for Health Care Workers. Take a look on my website, then contact me through that e-mail address if you would like more information about that. Otherwise... great talking to you here!
Melodie in Canada
www.nursingesl.com
I do have a suggestion for your 'beginners'. I have a new course for sale, Basic English for Health Care Workers. Take a look on my website, then contact me through that e-mail address if you would like more information about that. Otherwise... great talking to you here!
Melodie in Canada
www.nursingesl.com
International Symposium of English for Medical Purposes
Thank you, Melodie. I will look this over and let you know if I have any comments.
Medical English in China
"What I was attempting to say was that there is MORE to teaching Medical English than simply using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course. I believe that is much too limiting. Your thoughts?"
I don't understand.
The link you give me is not to a site that teaches Medical English "using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course."
It is to a call for abstracts for a conference on teaching Medical English.
I don't understand.
The link you give me is not to a site that teaches Medical English "using journal reading and writing as the focus of an entire course."
It is to a call for abstracts for a conference on teaching Medical English.
Oh, KatiaM....
I am trying to show you that in China the interest is in teaching 'Medical English' and that the linguist who teach use journals soley in their courses.
Yikes... how did we get on to this discussion, anyway... where is it taking us? Help.. clarification needed or... should be both move on?
Melodie
I am trying to show you that in China the interest is in teaching 'Medical English' and that the linguist who teach use journals soley in their courses.
Yikes... how did we get on to this discussion, anyway... where is it taking us? Help.. clarification needed or... should be both move on?
Melodie