Musn't V not allowed to

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Kes
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Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 5:31 pm

Musn't V not allowed to

Post by Kes » Wed May 10, 2006 8:33 pm

Hi, the same student as from my last post (I work full time and have maybe 50 students, but only this one gives me trouble!)

She reckons "I musn't give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt" must be correct, as musn't means the same as not be allowed to, and "I am not allowed to give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt" is correct. I know she is wrong, but WHY is she wrong?! Help me!

btw She accepts it if I tell her it just sounds wrong, but I like to give her a better explanation, as her logic is always infallible and I like riddles ;-)

liqi
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:36 pm

Post by liqi » Wed May 10, 2006 9:27 pm

"mustn't do sth" means "prohibit doing sth". Here, the context should be: "I won't/ can't give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt".

JuanTwoThree
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Location: Spain

Post by JuanTwoThree » Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 pm

Both of you need to look at this more deeply:

These modals are very subtle and often depend on which person they are in. Let's stick to "I".

"I must" always represents the internalised and subjective position of the speaker. "I must go" is a feeling that comes from inside, a compulsion to go.


In a way, "I must" is never negative: it's the verb after that's negative: "I mustn't go" is a very similar compulsion but this time "not to go".

So, "I mustn't give you a refund" is not a prohibition resulting from outside forces. It means:

"Coming from inside me is the deeply felt sensation that I am not going to let myself give you a refund and I will fight this impulse, my conscience does not allow it"

Probably not what the speaker is trying to say.

abufletcher
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Post by abufletcher » Thu May 11, 2006 4:17 am

Must.....fight.....the....urge.....to.....response.....sarcastically!

.....must.....not.....say.....something.....I'll....later.....re-gret....!

...I....musn't....do....it! Really.....I.....musn't!
Last edited by abufletcher on Thu May 11, 2006 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kes
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Post by Kes » Thu May 11, 2006 4:55 am

Thanks Juan! Just in time for my next class with her too!

abufletcher
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Post by abufletcher » Thu May 11, 2006 6:20 am

JuanTwoThree wrote: "I must" always represents the internalised and subjective position of the speaker. "I must go" is a feeling that comes from inside, a compulsion to go.
Curiously though, in another thread where "I must have to..." came up (which is perfectly "grammatical") the compulsion seems to be coming from outside (and is only partially accepted by the speaker):

"My wife says I have to do it, so I must have to do it." (...though clearly I don't feel the same degree of compulsion about this as my wife does.)

Or there was an element of conjecture involved (perhaps about something that was done improperly the first time):

"I must have to put two stamps on instead of just one."

I personally find modal use to be enormously interesting because it is just about the least structured (in terms of regularizable systematic meaning) and most chunky part of the English verbal system.

What leaves me in absolute stitches is when I overhear an English teacher telling his or her students that "should" is the "past tense" of "shall" and "would" the past tense of "will." Talk about trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole!!!

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu May 11, 2006 9:06 am

It's very chunky.

"I must have to bolt the widget to the sprocket" seems to be a a logical deduction reached by the speaker alone, perhaps despite what the instructions say.
Ditto the wife and the stamps. Both are a sort of "ipso facto" deduction.
Or "Well if that road is blocked and this one is flooded then I must have to go down the third one".

To quote myself " "I must" always represents the internalised and subjective position of the speaker". It's only with the addition of "go" that it looks like being a compulsion, though it'd be more of a deduction if there is no alternative. Either way the speaker him/herself seems to have arrived at the conclusion.
The question was about one situation. There might be other scenarios that bring about the shop assistant saying:
"I mustn't give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt".
But to me the most likely contextless reason for it not sounding incongruous would be someone fighting a craving to do just that, similar to "I mustn't have the last chocolate".

If there were easier ways of expressing the meanings of these slippery modals we'd all be using them instead.

sonya
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Re: Musn't V not allowed to

Post by sonya » Thu May 11, 2006 9:17 am

Kes wrote: She reckons "I musn't give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt" must be correct, as musn't means the same as not be allowed to, and "I am not allowed to give you a refund if you haven't got a receipt" is correct. I know she is wrong, but WHY is she wrong?! Help me!
I dunno, in this context musn't sounds like it's the same as shouldn't... Really, it just sounds quaint to use it, I don't hear people saying it unless they're trying to be cute or from the Victorian Era.

abufletcher
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Post by abufletcher » Thu May 11, 2006 1:43 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:It's very chunky.

"I must have to bolt the widget to the sprocket" seems to be a a logical deduction reached by the speaker alone, perhaps despite what the instructions say.
Ditto the wife and the stamps. Both are a sort of "ipso facto" deduction.
Or "Well if that road is blocked and this one is flooded then I must have to go down the third one".

To quote myself " "I must" always represents the internalised and subjective position of the speaker". It's only with the addition of "go" that it looks like being a compulsion, though it'd be more of a deduction if there is no alternative. Either way the speaker him/herself seems to have arrived at the conclusion.
I find myself agreeing with you this time around. I don't know what I must have been thinking. :D

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Thu May 11, 2006 5:52 pm

'must have to' is pretty uncommon, except where you are dealing with the noun phrase 'a must have' or preceding direct object + must have + infinitive of purpose.

'I must have to' turns up 27,000 hits on Google, compared to 2 million for 'I might have to' and seven million for "I will have to".

At the end of this post I give, the complete list of examples from the BNC. As we can see there are not a large number of cases and those where 'must' represents obligation are even fewer.

So, to summarize, Juan is basically correct.

1 A73 for Nora," she said. What a marvellous constitution she must have to remember that after all she'd been through! &bquo;
2 B33 that instead of Cologne. What reserves of strength and intellect she must have to remember details like that! And after all she'd
3 BP0 is a basic selection of knowledge and skills that a nurse must have to ensure competence, and teachers and curriculum planners are in
4 CKS "A place of that size must contain thousands; and must have to feed thousands. Or have they all left but the
5 CRA sign of weakness to ask for help." "You must have to be pretty sick to see a shrink." And so on
6 CTX exceed the actuarial calculation of its liabilities) that an insurer must have to reassure customers and regulators that it can meet its liabilities
7 E9U The network protocol basically decides what kind of adaptor your PC must have to connect to a LAN. And when you talk about
8 EA9 five intensive care beds were already full. "Presumably they must have to pay for all the preparation leading up to an operation of
9 EX7 DESK Reservations To deal with enquiries referring to reservations the receptionist must have to hand the up-to-the-minute room availability chart; the advance booking
10 F9V faith was a gift of God, yet a gift you must have to live. But how could a waverer be censored if
11 H9Y important principle involved in this selection of Venneman's discourse subjects must have to do with their relevance to the particular discourse fragment under
12 HHA thirteen phones and a miraculous fax ("Oooh, you must have to roll them up ever so small") machine. On behalf of
13 HJC in his swarthy skin. He was so dark that he must have to shave two or three times a day, she thought
14 J56 'd missed something: there was no cat door. She must have to rely on the woman to let her in and out
15 JY5 and fight hard --; for the priority he felt his PFF must have to survive. It was during this latter period that the
16 KBF Jennings Blake, have made me understand a little of what addicts must have to face when they're made to go cold turkey,
17 KBF look. Department numbers and how you spend it so you must have to fill this card in I should think The only the
18 KCJ I know he gets He must get through them. He must have to have about half a dozen though, mustn't he
19 KP5 was up and coming I know and you'll so you must have to show er some identi besides that oh if you're
20 KRH I don't brush my hair. Oh. So you must have to get one from somewhere then? Yeah I know,
21 KRJ Mr Smith? Yes we do. Goodbye. Well I must have to try and buy a radio I think. This is


mesmark
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Post by mesmark » Thu May 11, 2006 10:32 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:'I must have to' turns up 27,000 hits on Google, compared to 2 million for 'I might have to' and seven million for "I will have to".
'apples' turns up 43 million hits and 'oranges' 17 million. :)

'I must have to'
'I will have to'
'I might have to'


all are quite different in usage, what are you comparing?

I also agree with Juan.

Stephen Jones
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 pm

Post by Stephen Jones » Fri May 12, 2006 6:38 am

all are quite different in usage, what are you comparing?
The use of 'must' with 'have to do sometning' compared to other modals + 'have to do something'.

It's possible you missed the original thread. You can also compare the frequency of 'must' with 'have to' in this sense and 'must' and other modals with other verbs.

The conclusion is simple; 'must' + 'have to', where both of them have the sense of obligation, is exceptionally rare, as common sense would lead you to believe.

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