Slow local train goes off the rails

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fluffyhamster
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Slow local train goes off the rails

Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:18 am

Recently on the Activities and Games Forum I mentioned a textbook used in junior high schools here in Japan (Sunshine) in relation to activities for practising giving train route directions.

I've become aware of just how bad, what a dog's dinner this book makes of this area, because for the past two days I've been marking over 100 third grade test papers, and a lot of what the students wrote ain't good: in fact, it took 3 or 4 hours to correct what amounts to less than 10% of the paper (the JTEs didn't want to mark this section themselves, revealing eh).

The reasons for the students' relative failure are partly due to one the test item's instructions: 'Write at least 4 sentences.' But the main reason is that the textbook makes a meal of it and introduces complexities when in real life, we'd streamline things substantially.

The sort of dialogue (I don't have the Teacher's Book, so I can't give it verbatim) that serves as the model goes something like this (it's actually longer than this):
Get on the train at A station.
(Get off the train) at B station (and) change trains to the Yakisoba line.
Get off the train at C station. It's the second station.
Points:
1) I am pretty sure I have never heard or said 'Get on/off the train' - this is a thing that we can assume people will "naturally" do at the appropriate times, and they'd hardly be getting on a camel now, would they! As for 'Get on the train at A station', see 2).
2) A station is the local one, so it will probably be known to the particpiants in the conversation; in real life, I suspect people start talking about the route from the interchange (B station) and assume the listener can fill in the journey before that point.
3) Following on from the above two points, 'take' is mentioned in a further dialogue, but not highlighted (it's like the writers wanted to introduce a few "phrasal verbs" or something instead). This is unfortunate, because with it (take), one can express a lot of the above points in one fell swoop: '(From B station) Take the Yakisoba line (to C station)' (even the changing trains doesn't need to be explicitly stated).

All this is pretty much how conversations about train routes go: whenever I ask Japanese friends about how to get somewhere new, a lot about the starting point is known and assumed, and what gets emphasized is the relevant line: 'You need (to take)/Take the Keihin Tohoku line.' C station is also ellipted because we both know that's where I will get off (presuming I don't fall asleep on the train!). (It also helps to know the possible or final destination(s)/terminus(es), so you get on a train that's at going in roughly the right direction for at least a couple of stops - and don't whatever you do get on the express train! But the book makes no mention of these things).

In a nutshell, directions can boil down to 'You need (to take)/Take the X line' (?'You should take the X line' - simple statement or imperative versus more "loaded", potentially complex modal of obligation). Totally clueless tourists spankingly new to the place should be given a very clear map to brandish through their white-knuckle ride, rather than be forced (whilst in a hurry to make connections) to decipher tortured JHS student-level, mistake and repetition-filled "English".

So, we have a textbook dialogue that has a lot of redundancy in it (requiring more memorization than is necessary), and a test which expects regurgitation of the more or less that whole model intact, and will accept no less (re. the four sentence minimum). The end results could end up looking something like this (admittedly this is one of the worse examples...among those who actually wrote anything near the required length!):
You should take the Nanboku line. Then you should get on the Kurowa station. You should Misaki station at change trains at Tozai line. Train stop second station near the zoo.
Obviously, the model hadn't quite sunk in... (Actually, should the students be studying how to give directions at all? If a foreigner can't follow a guidebook, all the signs in English, or speak even the most basic of Japanese, whose fault is that? And accuracy in production, whilst it might help with understanding in reception, is of a different order of difficulty (for JHS students at least), and if they don't actually end up ever going abroad it will in fact have been a complete waste of time to have studied it; this sort of language can be picked up soon enough later, a short while before any such trips are to become a reality).

ANYWAY I also noticed that quite a few students had been writing 'Get on the X line', and wrote comments on their papers along the lines of the above (stressing 'take', along with 'to Z station...' if Z station was an interchange (it's then followed by another 'Then, take the Y line (to ZZ station)')). Ah, the joys of frogjumping!

The Head JTE noticed this and informed (read, 'gently patronized') me that as I was British, and this structure (so she assured me) American English, I wouldn't be as aware of it and was thus (implicitly) in no position to query it or suggest alternatives...and this, despite the fact that I'm pretty sure it doesn't appear in the book! (Can a non-native speaker safely extrapolate from ?'Get on the train' to 'Get on the X line'?!).

Why are JTEs so attached to the key phrases in the book, even when they are clumsy and lead to unnecessary circumlocution (which increases the burden on memory and/or the risk of error in reproduction)? To me, the student phrase 'Get on the X line' was a subconscious cry, a sign that their cognitive processes were working their way towards 'take' in an effort to 'make sense' (in completing the task); that is, the model had gaps or begged questions...

So, any American English speakers want to confirm or deny what that head JTE was saying? (General comments also welcome!).

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:33 am

I find that whatever model you teach, when you get to the "Now give directions to your house!" section, it all goes out of the window. Giving directions of whatever kind is complex, idiomatic and dependent on personal style. Still, you have to boil it down somehow.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:42 am

But you'd agree that in this instance, the textbook writers have boiled things down to a fine nugget of precious poop, woody?

I must say, I'm surprised* your chosen approach isn't working wonders in all areas of the syllabus! :lol:

* Minus the sarcasm, the above sentence would read 'I'm not surprised your chosen approach ins't working wonders (in this area of the syllabus especially- after all, it requires a well thought-out model first and foremost!)'. :D

:wink:

revel
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Ask again

Post by revel » Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:57 am

Good morning all.

Either the coffee hasn't taken effect or whatever, but I'm afraid I don't see anything particularly American English in your example. To me, sounds like classroom English, and not, as I agree with you, what would be said in the universe of discourse.

Just two days ago my team teacher spent a half hour with our class on giving directions, you all know, that section of whatever unit, usually focusing on the imperative structure, in its simplest form, as in this situation using "would" or "please" would be inappropriate (Imagine "You'd go straight ahead, please") Students were also exposed to basic directional words such as "right" "left", "it's next to, in front of, opposite of", "you'll see a...." "go, turn, cross".

Then it's my turn with them. I naturally tell them that all that other is simply classroom material and that they have to imagine themselves in the real situation. "You are driving in a city you do not know. You are looking for a certain place. You stop on a street corner and ask directions. The friendly local realizes that you are far/near from/to your destination. He/she begins explaining in a long and detailed manner how to get where you want to get. You nod, maybe repeat the instructions, put the car in drive again and after making the first turn to the left, you wonder if it shouldn't have been followed with a turn to the right. A car cuts you off on this street and you've forgotten if you were to continue past the newsstand or if the turn was just before the newsstand. Finally you have not gotten where you wanted to get, you stop again, a bit frustrated, and you ask again."

Those are the magic words in giving directions. Look towards the horizon that you know is behind all those buildings and trees. Point with your finger and tell the tired, frustrated driver: "Go straight until you get to the end of this street. Turn left and go straight until you see a fountain in the middle of a large square. Ask again."

When travelling from Madrid to Paris one does not find upon leaving the city limits of Madrid that the highway department has placed a road-sign with the words "Paris, 1000km" and a nice white arrow. One will find the next important towns indicated, but not the far-away destination. The same should be true about giving directions. Simple language and only send them off onto the first leg of their journey, to the farthest point that can be seen, maybe with an added instruction if it is easy to follow, and always with an "ask again".

That's how I get around that silly chapter in the text-book anyway.

peace,
revel.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:17 am

Certainly in London I would say something like "Go down the Northern Line from Chalk Farm, change onto the Victoria Line at Euston and then change onto the Picadilly Line at GreenPark. Knightsbridge is two stops after that going west. Or look, you could ........".

Clearly there isn't a formula for any city, it helps if both people have a map and every system has its own oddities and ways of talking about lines.

I love the way books "teach" giving directions. It's always "Take the second turning on the left" and never "Take the second left" . They never wonder if somebody is facing the wrong way on the "You are here" starting point and the script inevitably finishes "You can't miss it" : more a fond hope than any kind of firm expectation.

Why would anyone ever write four lines of directions. You'd draw a map.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:31 am

We've come to similar insights regarding giving street directions at least, revvers!

I'm always amazed at how long and involved those "information gap" activities (with student A and B each holding half-complete maps) can become. In reality, all one has to do is buy a complete map, and there is usually a helpful local around who can point to something and say (in their L1 at least), 'Do you see that church? Turn right there and keep walking until...' (better still, they walk with you to the church and then point out the pachinko place further down that right-hand street, finishing with '...and it's opposite that' (that=the pachinko place). This doesn't stop earnest "communicative" teachers wasting oodles of time on teaching students how to flatly intone from the uninspiring outset, 'Turn right at the church' (no substitution with 'there' for '(Do you see) that church' for these students, oh no! The real world is a million miles away in this kind of classroom).

When it comes to trains, unfortunately the train moves but you don't, so what you can see is much more constrained and you are a "captive audience member" until it stops to let you off (whereupon you can take can regain control somewhat over your grasp of your surroundings).

I've found that the route finder on things such as www.yahoo.co.jp (click on the &#36335;&#32218; kanji, then enter Hepburn romaji, before converting it to the appropriate kanji by means of the space bar, in the from and to station search boxes) really does help save my company lots of time in explaining things to me. (The &#22320;&#22259; - map search - function is also obviously very useful once you've reached your destination station and have to walk from there).

It really irritates me when students are made to memorize useless phrases with which to woo the beautiful, mysterious, cute, cuddly, whatever stranger, but what is even more irritating is that Tom or Brad or Julia is denied the right to get exasperated*, want to help improve the situation or, heaven forbid, shreik 'None of this really matters, so let's just drop it, shall we!' (especially if they did so in Japanese). It's like the Japanese reserve the right to learn a type of English that nobody really speaks, and are mystified or offended when native speakers don't appreciate the effort and refuse to play ball.

I'm not here to give these students' teachers a hefty slap on the back for peddling a load of rubbish and then forcing their students to grind it all back out over four torturous sentences. If these teachers want to carry on with nonsense like that the least they could do is mark test answers (the majority of which are like the one above) themselves, rather than depositing the offensive items on my desk for me to "assess". :evil:

*I mean, we really have to ask, did (or will) "the foreigner" ask for directions, or is this just a case of the Japanese learner having to prove something!

fluffyhamster
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Re: Ask again

Post by fluffyhamster » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:25 am

revel wrote:Either the coffee hasn't taken effect or whatever, but I'm afraid I don't see anything particularly American English in your example. To me, sounds like classroom English, and not, as I agree with you, what would be said in the universe of discourse.
Oh, I forgot to say, thanks for strengthening my intuitions regarding that dodgy example, revel! :P

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:51 am

Another example of some dodgy test instructions: at my junior high school, the grade that recently went on a school trip to Kyoto, Nara etc were asked in their mid-term test a few days ago to write six+ sentences about it.

The natural response of most students would probably have been to simply use Simple Past tense, but there was the ominous directive to 'make sure that you use Present Perfect in at least two of your sentences' (the focus of the test generally was on this).

So, from students who now have been to Kyoto etc at least once in their lives, I've had in 95% of the cases to correct efforts such as 'I went to Kyoto recently. I've never been to Kyoto before. ...'. (=It was the first time I'd visited there=It was my first time [to visit/visiting] there).

If a student had started their "composition" (none did, however) with something like 'I have been to Kyoto - (in fact) I went there a few days ago', that would've been OK with me personally, but the all-important instructions, as I've said, were more 'Write about where you WENT on your recent trip', not 'Which places have you been (in your life)' (?'Where have you been on your trip' is obviously skewy, but that's what the instructions were "asking for" - that, and/or the need to use Past Perfect in the negative)...obviously, the best thing would've been to develop a completely different test item!

Those few students who did write things such as 'I've been to Kyoto' did so midway through their composition, and didn't use cohesive features (such as 'So (I can now say that)...(at least the)once now') to give their otherwise "stranded" sentence much if any functional shape (and it takes a quite skilled reader to work out, or rather assign ANY meaning, necessarily dubiously, to it at all). (BTW I'm not saying that JHS students should be expected to know cohesive features of quite the type I myself used just now). In the same vein, a couple of students wrote things like 'I've been to Kinkakuji' (a famous Japanese temple), that I preferred to assign more meaning to than they probably intended, rather than mark such sentences as absolutely wrong.

I intimated to the JTE concerned that the test had exposed a "gap" (i.e. a lack of knowledge of Past Perfect) - but then, the course of study hasn't covered this yet (and likely doesn't at any future point either), but rather than thanking me for my hard work and perhaps going on to considering rewriting similar test items in the future (let alone actually attempting to teach Past Perfect or, heaven forbid, reteach some aspects of Presnt Perfect), the JTE just sighed 'Oh, it's too difficult', as if it was all my (or at least somebody else's) fault. :x :roll: 8) :lol:
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:12 pm

Arabs are absolutely hopeless giving directions, probably because to do it successfully involves putting yourself in the place of the other person. The result is that classes on directions inevitably create more passion than any other.

For sheer hopelessness giving directions I remember two incidents from the nineties in Riyadh. On the first occassion I had had the gas oven blow up on me and needed instructions to find the clinic to change the bandages. They were quite simple. Go to the main road, go down it and then turn right at the next traffic light. I got to the main road, walking and prepared to walk down it to the turn off. Three kilomoters long and not a traffic light in site. So I gave up and got the school to hire me a taxi the next day. I gave the taxi driver the map the doctor had drawn, told him the general area, and then set off. Twenty-five minutes later the driver realized he was lost, and stopped at a telphone booth to phone the doctor; there then followed a full ten minutes of animated conversation, at the end of which the taxi driver came out, and said he now knew the way. We found the clinic, but only because the doctor was outside in the street, waiting for us. "What happened?" he said, "Did you lose my map?".

A year or so later I arranged to meet an Egyptian friend under the fountain in a shopping mall. The instructions involved turning right at the roundabout. I followed the instructions, arrived at the mall, and sat under the fountain for an hour. It later transpired he was sitting under the fountain in another mall two kilometers away. He'd miscounted the number of roundabouts. "What should I have done at that roundabout?" I asked. "Oh, that doesn't count, just drive straight through it."

strider
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Post by strider » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:26 am

Yes, fluffy, the sad reality of most language teaching in most countries is that it is arranged for the convenience of teachers, rather than to actually help kids speak the language in a competent fashion.

And difficult directions? Here's something I occasionally throw in to lessons with adults who have got the hang of 'turn left, go straight on' language : imagine you are in a town in England, ask for directions to X. Here's the reply - go up the road till you see the Black Dog, then turn left. At the Kings Head turn right and keep going until you see The Slug and Lettuce. Just opposite you'll see the Mason's Arms and X is a few hundred yards further on...

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:13 pm

Maybe you've been out of the UK too long strider - these days all the pubs are called All Bar One, Hog's Head, Slug and Lettuce or J D Weatherspoon :(

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:23 am

I noticed also that the instructions didn't just ask for any old two sentences using present perfect, but for the students to use at least two (i.e. two or more) "types" of present perfect.

Richards' paper on present perfect lists four types; the textbook used at this junior high school contains three, in the following order:

1) I've just finished my homework/just arrived; A: Miho has made lunch, right? B: Yes, she has. She's just made it (Students then substitute 'arrive', 'start swimming' and 'start cleaning the tent' into the same dialogue pattern).

2) Have you (ever)...?

3) I've...for/since...

As I recall, no student tried or managed to use the first type (hypothetically, 'I've just come back from Kyoto' - but when the trip was at least two to three days, perhaps even a week ago?). As for the second type, I'm surprised that no student turned the grammar back on the examiner/marker ('Have YOU ever been to Kyoto?'); no surprises however that the third proved problematic (few students had been to Kyoto before this trip, and those who possibly had didn't seen to know phrases like 'two/three/four etc times (now)' (even though e.g. 'for the first time' appears in 2nd grade (these students are 3rd grade)) and confused me with vocbulary choices such as 'lived', 'visited' (in relation to "for however many years").

Ho hum. 8)

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:29 am

strider wrote:Yes, fluffy, the sad reality of most language teaching in most countries is that it is arranged for the convenience of teachers, rather than to actually help kids speak the language in a competent fashion.
The thing is, if the (non-native) teacher has any linguistic awareness at all, they can't but soon realize how inconvenient a half-baked test item is, and not just in terms of marking headaches (it must also be unhelpful and somewhat more confusing for the students, too); still, as long as there's a native speaker around to mark the stuff, who cares, right?

I just shudder to think what happens when I'm not around or gone, is all.

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