She is going to sleep

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JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:12 pm

The point I was feebly trying to make was that in, say, the case of "Last night I went to sleep at two" it's doubtful that "sleep" is even a verb. If it was a verb, then presumably this would be ok:

*Last night at two I went to sleep deeply.



Unless the "went" is like "went upstairs" in which case, yes, it's the infinitive of purpose.

So I doubt, in the most reasonable interpretation of "I'm going to sleep", a) if it's the "going to" future as normally understood: you can't use that in any tense you fancy for a start. "go to sleep" seems ok in any tense, b) if "sleep" is a verb anyway.

Not that "I went to deep sleep" is entirely convincing but it's a sight better than "I went to sleep deeply".

BTW A surprising (?) number of "going to sleep" Googles are followed by "with". :shock: One of those cases when a word means exactly the opposite of what it says :!:

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:45 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:The point I was feebly trying to make was that in, say, the case of "Last night I went to sleep at two" it's doubtful that "sleep" is even a verb. If it was a verb, then presumably this would be ok:

*Last night at two I went to sleep deeply.



Unless the "went" is like "went upstairs" in which case, yes, it's the infinitive of purpose.

quote]

Yes, to me "I went to sleep deeply" would signal a purposeful action, which would seem a bit odd.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:56 am

Hmm, you don't read things very closely, metal, do you! I've clearly said, on this thread and elsewhere, that I teach in high schools in Japan (in fact I have substantial experience at elementary, junior and senior high i.e. all school levels), so you'll perhaps forgive me for not adding 'Japanese high school/pre-university' between 'many' and 'students' (when I ask e.g. 'How many students are of the intellectual calibre of a Nabokov?'). Anyway, I thought it was clear that I was not saying that Japanese students are necessarily unintelligent, but rather that they are probably not getting all the help that they might with their English education.

As for patronizing "my" students, I'm not the one presenting decontextualized, awry examples as the rule rather than the exception (simply because "I" can't be bothered to find better ones that would surely be more appealing to, and appreciated by students that "I" seem to have "written off", consigned to a very plodding and strict lockstep that only goes as slow as, and never ever any faster than, the very slowest of ships); the only people patronizing to students round here are, I can assure you, the Japanese teachers. Still, if I had my way (perhaps after appearing to "patronize" - that is 'inform', 'educate' - the JTEs LOL), maybe the classes wouldn't learn a thing and would still be unable to understand much if any English after a year or more with me, eh (=irony alert).

Furthermore, you seem to have missed the entire point of the discussion: the JTE's example was decidedly decontextualized and only accrued its "meaning" through the sheer insistent force of the JTE that it meant be going to (in accordance with the stated lesson aim/target "language" (grammatical structure)); as for your example, it has far more context(ualization), but even so, I am not sure how I would interpret it exactly in that context, were I present to hear it said (I rather suspect that I wouldn't give it much thought, or if I did give it any, that I would soon give up on account of its ambiguity still, somewhat, to my mind at least).

So we ultimately have an example (yours now, more contextualized) that will probably be (un)interpreted "correctly" (that is, raise fewer eyebrows less high than the JTE's totally decontextualized example). My question, however, remains: to what extent will these two examples, yours or especially the JTE's decontextualized one, give students a more solid grasp of be going to (as it is less ambiguously used) than they otherwise might gain?

You'll probably huff and puff that of course your students don't encounter only such examples - of course they meet (or have met) many more, doubtless more "standard" ones. But I think I can be forgiven for questioning what exactly it is that YOU do, 'wherever and whoever you teach', when all you seem to do on Dave's at least is focus on the atypical (at the expense, in the discussion here on Dave's, of the typical).

Oh, and before you start again, yes, I know we need ever new descriptions etc, but I guess the "Metal56 Advanced Basic Non-essential Grammar" will be longer in the making than even Carter and McCarthy's new one took.

Talking of things taking a long time, you were a while replying here, eh (I thought actually that you'd run off with your tail between your legs or simply given up or something), and I have to wonder if this was entirely due to having to e.g. bottle-feed your new baby. Is she as cute as you, babe? :o :D

JTT, I also noticed the frequent co-occurence of 'with', but I didn't want to say, unless anyone thought I didn't have a one-track linguistic mind. :lol:

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:31 am

metal56 wrote:My God! Where, who and what have you been teaching? If I were one of your students, I'd fire you immediately just for your patronising attitude.
Aww, metal, I can't be the only one who's disappointed that (so far) you've only managed a dribble of unwarranted bile rather than frothing your usual unhealthy torrents of hideous spew. Maybe you're all "Nuff said"-ed out? :o :lol: 8) :D

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:40 am

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:My God! Where, who and what have you been teaching? If I were one of your students, I'd fire you immediately just for your patronising attitude.
Aww, metal, I can't be the only one who's disappointed that (so far) you've only managed a dribble of unwarranted bile rather than frothing your usual unhealthy torrents of hideous spew. Maybe you're all "Nuff said"-ed out? :o :lol: 8) :D
LOL! You're hilarious when you get nasty.

And, why did I take so long to reply? I guess your insignificance led me astray.

metal56
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Re: She is going to sleep

Post by metal56 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:50 am

fluffyhamster wrote:Would you say that this is an example of the be going to construction?
Hey, Fluffed, what does this mean to you?

she's going to sleep earlier
Last edited by metal56 on Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:40 am

'She IS going to sleep earlier'? Hmm, seems OK (as opposed to, say, 'She has been going to sleep earlier'), but what if the context was implicitly (and might be continued thus): '...and earlier nowadays'.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:24 pm

I could imagine a parent of a small child saying "She is going to sleep earlier (than she did just after she was born)".

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:03 am

Thanks for the contributions, guys! :)

Anyway, the point is, the meaning is still somewhat ambiguous even with the addition of 'earlier'.

An approach that presents an ambiguous example and then contextualizes its possible meanings in/by means of (n) contexts may have its advantages, but where there is too much of a "tolerance" for - indeed, what seems to be a total lack of awareness of - ambiguity, it will ultimately be the students who are left picking up and adding the extra pieces (of context) or needing to reformulate to make their meaning clear (assuming that they do actually one day find themselves in situations calling for the general lexis if not the specific lexicogrammar that they were "taught").

I'm not saying that students should be pressed into producing ever longer utterances (because context often fills in the gaps without everything needing to be spelt out in excruciating detail), but they do need to be told that examples like 'She is going to sleep' do not support a clear "be going to" interpretation (probably due to the semantics of '(to) sleep' versus the other possible choices mentioned above); better yet, teachers should give their examples some thought and rework it and/or introduce alternative exponents for whatever functions they are presumably planning to teach.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:45 am

it will ultimately be the students who are left picking up and adding the extra pieces (of context) or needing to reformulate to make their meaning clear (assuming that they do actually one day find themselves in situations calling for the general lexis if not the specific lexicogrammar that they were "taught").
Good training for real life contexts, I'd say. Many conversations are fragments/framentary and one has to be able to recognise the type of fragments which get repeated.

My students relish contextualising exercises, but then again, they're my students and not yours.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:50 am

Another valuable contribution without a trace of unnecessary nastiness and arrogance from metal56 there, ladies and gents. The way he's talking, it's like he wrote the bulk of this thread and has been telling all of us (including any students who are substantially below intermediate going on advanced) how "fragments"* like 'She is going to sleep' "get repeated" (a lot, apparently) in real life and are thus so very "useful". :roll:

Surely you are aware that if an example we present to students is indeed "frequent" (that is, exactly selected or based in its general composition on frequency norms) then it will come with a specific context attached entirely free of charge (or have a context that is recoverable from the extra context of the text as held in e.g. a corpus, or easily reconstructed, imaginable) - I mean, the last time I looked in learner dictionaries, grammars, indeed, real texts, they weren't chock full of ambiguous examples, except (in the case of the dictionaries or grammars) as marginal/addended usage notes, whispered asides almost, advising students NOT to follow the proscribed usages; the focus then (of any sane teacher or learner at least) naturally falls on the main body of sound and useful examples to be studied. Why then do you have to defend every last scrap of "usage" (and derived dodgy methodology) to the death? I think you sorely need to make a distinction between examples, exemplars, to be memorized without further ado, and "facts" (such as 'Why this non-example is incorrect'), interesting though those linguistic "facts" may be when they seem "necessary" to ponder.

I suppose that in the case of dictionaries, they can be excused for presenting "negative evidence" (based on an analysis of learner errors), because they have a wealth of attested usage that will prove whatever points through sheer "force of examples", but dubious usages have little place in actual courses, where the aim (or at least the hope) is to bring the learner up to speed without too much ado. I'm aware that there are many ways to peel an orange, but why fixate on the fairly unedible skin when we can get munching on the good bits?

*If by 'fragment' you mean that in speech especially, other words could be added but were or are generally not due to there being little ambiguity in context, I would have thought that I had made it clear enough throughout the thread generally and in my responses to you specifically that ambiguity remained in every subsequent contextualization of the original form or expansion wordwise upon its "fragmentary" size, hence my questioning the validity of the "fragment"/sentence/call-it-what-you-will, and doubting its attestedness. And if you mean a perhaps half-formed thought, trailing off into...reformulation probably, well, they can be pretty wierd and are hardly what one deliberately sets out to emulate, especially as a learner struggling to make maximal sense, be understood, with as yet minimal resources for doing so. Anyway, in the class in question, 'She is going to sleep' was presented as a clear and unambigous whole requiring neither linguistic expansion nor explication of any possible context(s). The expansion so far does not seem to remove the ambiguity, so we are left with something that could continue to pose problems of interpetation for students, who will in all probability not have much chance to use it (and even if they did, would their usage of it context A and/or B ever really allay their doubts, their enquiring minds spurred by their teacher's selection and presentation and the ensuing analysis, and possibly heated discussion, of the item, let alone equip them lexicogrammatically to utter in English the remainder of the things relating to the notion of sleep - they unfortunately did not have time to study anything else in their classes. Just describing how "wonder-ful" I imagine your classes must be, metal. :lol: )

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:36 am

If you simply said 'What you say is obvious, long-winded and boring' and left it at that, metal, I might be inclined to agree (with the proviso that I could add in reply that you can be very "tight-lipped", especially when you're not having a go at me - you're all linguistics and no application. Or should that be (a type of) linguistics with no application? :lol: ). When however you start arguing about what people can plainly see is not attested usage, as if any subsequent enlargement of the form in question absolves the original from being askew (which you have yet to acknowledge it was), it makes me suspect that you have a need to fill time or do something "special" in your classes. I picture you, all beard and sandals like some poor Rinvolucri wannabe, sitting on the floor in front of a semi-circle of cowering students and shouting 'But what does it MEAN?!' until specks of your fervourent froth hit the back wall of the class. I suggest you simply stop faffing around and select more immediately acceptable examples, or, if you insist on using ambiguous ones, at least try to select those which show ambiguity as a genuine, consistent feature of the form, clearly apparent from the conflicts the form generates within the examples/contexts that it affects; this would help distinguish largely academic debate over invented then endlessly modified examples, and the real problems that students might encounter (and would probably prefer to avoid, wherever possible).

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:43 am

metal56 wrote:My students relish contextualising exercises, but then again, they're my students and not yours.
You mean you like giving them dodgy input then cackling evilly as they struggle to make sense of it (and how could they when even native speakers can't ultimately make much sense of it).

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:01 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:My students relish contextualising exercises, but then again, they're my students and not yours.
You mean you like giving them dodgy input then cackling evilly as they struggle to make sense of it (and how could they when even native speakers can't ultimately make much sense of it).
Are you still ranting on? I've been down the beach, had a swim and a beer in a lovely terrace. Sorry I missed your rant.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 am

metal56, in a drunken beachbum haze, wrote:Are you still ranting on? I've been down the beach, had a swim and a beer in a lovely terrace. Sorry I missed your rant.
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, you're the coolest guy on the planet, and we all just really dig the groovy vibe you bring to this site. Now that you're back, though, and have posted on this very thread, you can't really have missed what I wrote, can you? But then, I've long since given up on you being able to express a coherent let alone halfway-relevant thought.

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