Investigating applied linguistics fora.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:20 am

Is this pertinent to this cyber-forum?

"According to Nayar the ideological loading in most of the arguments in cyberspace postings authorizes the view that English learning is seen as part of a process of equipping them (learners) for the chance of joining us (the native speaker community)."

From: Us and Others: Social Identities Across Languages, Discourses and Cultures (Pragmatics and Beyond New Series)
by Anna Duszak (Editor)

NB. Nayar was originally referring to postings of the TESL-L interest group.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:57 am

Is this pertinent to this cyber-fora?

Probably not, but your use of a singular determiner with a plural noun is

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:32 am

Stephen Jones wrote:
Is this pertinent to this cyber-fora?
Probably not, but your use of a singular determiner with a plural noun is

Hmm, that "probably" is telling.

Thanks for spotting the typo.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:36 am

More from Nayar, on investigating language fora and the image of the non-native speaker vs. the native-speaker:

"Nayar notices that inadequacies in the use of English are often interpreted as some kind of general deprivation, whether cognitive, itellectual, social or emotional."

"The overall image is that the English learning community is in need of "pastoral care" because of its being intellectually impoverished, if not inferior, and socio-economically impoverished."

Us and Others: Social Identities Across Languages, Discourses and Cultures (Pragmatics and Beyond New Series)
by Anna Duszak (Editor)

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:50 pm

Is there a link to the complete article? Nayar seems to be making some pretty strong assertions here and it'd be worth seeing what he bases them on.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:32 pm

lolwhites wrote:Is there a link to the complete article? Nayar seems to be making some pretty strong assertions here and it'd be worth seeing what he bases them on.

No link, sorry. I have the book.

Here's another quote:

"Nayar argues that the discourse of applied linguistics has been for long promoting a power dynamic in favour of the native speaker with such central concepts as the native speaker "intuition" or its correlate in the privileged position of "authentic" English (texts)." Nayar shows that this kind of thinking - which I choose here to describe as a form of regime of the Other - can be found in the interaction of teachers in cyberspace. He analyses postings of the TESL-L interest group, and concludes that on that network the identities of native speaker and non-native speaker are strongly projected, and that the dominance of the native speaker is sustained and conveyed in a variety of overt and covert ways."

Food for thought. Time for reflection.

The original article is titled:

Ideological binarism in the identities of native and non-native speakers.

By Bhaskaran Nayar.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:14 am

Would we be having this discussion about any language other than English? Somehow I don't think anyone would even consider doubting the merits of students of Chinese or Czech asking advice from native speakers.

revel · Post by **revel** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:43 pm

Hey all!

We are kind of arrogant, we ESL teachers! I certainly think the student tries to get everything he/she can out of his/her ESL teacher. I think that sometimes being an ESL teacher goes to our heads, we become heady with the power that teaching English represents in this American dominated world. We have the key to the Internet, to good jobs, travel facilities, we can even help you wipe away your wrinkles (referring to a article I've recently read in an ESL book that I didn't bother to share with my students)!

And finally, sharing a bit more of that Musical Wisdom that titles this post:

"An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him;
The moment he speaks he makes another Englishman despise him."

So why wouldn't we Native English Speakers look down on all those others who struggle with the directness and simplicity of our language?

peace,
revel.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:53 pm

lolwhites wrote:Would we be having this discussion about any language other than English? Somehow I don't think anyone would even consider doubting the merits of students of Chinese or Czech asking advice from native speakers.

Do you think that native Czech or Chinese (whatever that is) speakers , re intuition, can be trusted more than native English speakers can about their own language?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:10 pm

metal56 wrote:Do you think that native Czech or Chinese (whatever that is) speakers , re intuition, can be trusted more than native English speakers can about their own language?

No, I don't. I was just wondering why the debate always seems to be about native EFL/ESL teachers. Everything that's been said so far about the "arrogance" of native speakers seems to be directed at teachers of English; is that just coincidence? Is it based on any linguistic grounds or could it be politically motivated? Am I just being paranoid?

Revel talks about the "power of teaching English" and "American dominance"; could some of this "arrogant native speaker" talk be motivated by a need to somehow apologise for being the dominant culture at the moment?

I'm just throwing ideas around here to see what people think.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:14 am

lolwhites wrote:
No, I don't. I was just wondering why the debate always seems to be about native EFL/ESL teachers. Everything that's been said so far about the "arrogance" of native speakers seems to be directed at teachers of English; is that just coincidence?

Where do you see that? Not in this thread.

But, why not focus on teacher and teaching? That's what this forum is partly about.

"One important aspect of linguicism is the teaching of English as a foreign and second language and its maintenance as a “national” language in communities whose mother tongue is something other than English. Attempts to make English a global language have both a complex economic and political history, Phillipson and his followers would like to change the state of affairs as they see them, they point out the cultural, social, and psychological damage which can be inflicted by the fallacies of the English language teaching profession.. They speculate that the main problem is the monolingual emphasis with which English is often taught. There are definite disadvantages to teaching any language in this fashion. Language is often considered to be a sensitive indicator of the relationship between an individual and any given social group. It is an integral part of ourselves, it permeates our very thinking, the way we view the world, morality and social behaviour. For this very reason it becomes clear that language teaching is a matter which should be handled sensitively."

http://ezinearticles.com/?English-Langu ... &id=304621

Revel talks about the "power of teaching English" and "American dominance"; could some of this "arrogant native speaker" talk be motivated by a need to somehow apologise for being the dominant culture at the moment?
The accusation of being apologist is not new in itself. I'm not apologising for anything, unless I am directly responsible for something. In fact, my post is directed at native-speakers. We should be able to discuss our attitudes to the spread of English and the way in which that is carried out, shouldn't we?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:48 am

Useful language, "linguicism":

Linguicism for Phillipson, is an assembly of “ideologies, structures and practices which are used to legitimate, effectuate and reproduce an unequal division of power and resources (both material and immaterial) between groups which are defined on the basis of language”.

revel · Post by **revel** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:28 pm

Hey all!

Well, just did a googlesearch on ESL, CSL (Chinese) and SSL (Spanish), only ESL has the meaning of X-language (in this case, English) as a second language (27,000,000 hits). The other two there wasn't a page on language with those letters as a search clue.

I think there is probably a group entity in the ESL and EFL world, while it might be more difficult to find that entity in the teaching of other languages. Like lolwhites, just sharing diverse ideas on the subject, not enough time to develop them right now.

peace,
revel.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:53 pm

What other languages are used by two speakers and have been learnt by both of them? It's not something I know much about.

I imagine that Hindi would be one. Mandarin, Russian and perhaps Spanish are others.

Is Arabic in all its forms more or less mutually intelligible than English is in its?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:37 am

French of course across Africa and elsewhere.

It's interesting that all of them are/were encouraged if not imposed by a government to promote national unity and/or have some kind of academy at their head.

Arabic has its own special status as the language in which the Koran was written, so knowing it is a special kind of belonging for many people. Not unlike pre-reformation Latin?

English and French perhaps have in common their being used in ex-colonies as an official language despite being the language of the ex-colonists.

It still leaves English without a useful parallel in terms of its large and powerful native speaking community, its geographical spread, its resonances of "belonging" (to what exactly?), its lack of a top-down definitive form and so on.

And I'm using a course-book which has a tie-in with Walt Disney! Which is at least more overt than all that subliminal stuff about Halloween, Beefeaters and using The Royals to teach the family ("Who are Charles's children, Maria?" "That's a good question, John").

Teacher Discussion Forums

Investigating applied linguistics fora.

Investigating applied linguistics fora.

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Acronym