Investigating applied linguistics fora.

[metal56]

Metal, here are some examples of Indian coinage: I have put the coinage on the left and the standard equivalents in brackets on the right.

When you write "standard equivalents", which standard are you referring to.

Many thanks for that list, BTW. Some of them are quite good. Do you prevent your students using all of those?

[fluffyhamster]

then the hours spent worrying about 'prepone' could be time well spent.

So it takes you hours to teach new vocabulary? Hmm.

Oh, sorry, I meant 'the "hours" that've been spent on it (by me at least) on this forum'. "Teaching" it would in my case consist of shouting 'NOOO!' and then pointing pointedly at a big flashing 'to bring a meeting forward (usu. passive?)' flashcard.

[metal56]

Personally, I think the English of Indians will get better with time, because more are becoming English-conscious by the day.

When you say "get better", which model or target do you have in mind?

[Anuradha Chepur]

I guess, standard means BrE/AmE or an understood international average of both.

[metal56]

"Teaching" it would in my case consist of shouting 'NOOO!' and then pointing pointedly at a big flashing 'to bring a meeting forward (usu. passive?)' flashcard.

And as we also have "advanced" as an option to "bring forward", what would be your advice on register and usage?

[metal56]

I guess, standard means BrE/AmE or an understood international average of both.

But one or two posters here have suggested that Indian English use, including coinage, would already be understood internationally. I certainly could understand 90% of the words in the list you posted. I didn't really need the bracketed versions. So, what's the problem with coinage?

You do agree that such coinage should and can be used in India among Indians, don't you? Or would you prefer that Indians make extra effort to rid there variant of such coinage?

[Anuradha Chepur]

Metal wrote *Some of them are quite good.*

Some broad-minded person like you would eventually recommend listing them in dictionaries, I suppose. Just as *bollywood* got listed.

Metal wrote: * Do you prevent your students using all of those?*

I would be failing in my duty, if I don't. Unless a coinage is accepted internationally (by way of listing in dictionaries or used by native speakers), it is not advisable to let students use them, since you are supposed to teach them correct English. I remember, on another forum, a native speaker didn't like the word 'non-vegetarian', I had used.



Metal wrote: *When you say "get better", which model or target do you have in mind?*

Internationally accepted standards, which won't raise eyebrows.
I don't tell my students that they should ape native speakers. What I tell them is to try to come close to the understood standard form and minimise L1 interference. Atleast one should not be able to guess a person's native language, based on the English he speaks.

[Anuradha Chepur]

I guess, standard means BrE/AmE or an understood international average of both.

But one or two posters here have suggested that Indian English use, including coinage, would already be understood internationally. I certainly could understand 90% of the words in the list you posted. I didn't really need the bracketed versions. So, what's the problem with coinage?

You do agree that such coinage should and can be used in India among Indians, don't you? Or would you prefer that Indians make extra effort to rid there variant of such coinage?

The problem with coinage is, they would be rejected for certain jobs (call center, etc), if they speak Indian English, not because the interviewer doesn't understand coinage, but because he doesn't approve of coinage. They would also be caught by native speaker police. :lol:

[fluffyhamster]

"Teaching" it would in my case consist of shouting 'NOOO!' and then pointing pointedly at a big flashing 'to bring a meeting forward (usu. passive?)' flashcard.

And as we also have "advanced" as an option to "bring forward", what would be your advice on register and usage?

Apparently 'advance' is considered more formal (according to the usage labels in my Longman, and Oxford, though the Oxford marks it in addition as "SYNonymous" with 'bring forward').

Another thing I noticed is that 'advance' has over half a dozen meanings (some doubtless somewhat related), of which the relevant one is ranked sixth in both dictionaries, whilst the first and primary meaning of 'bring forward' is its sense in relation to meetings and the like.

Given all the above, I'd probably teach 'bring forward' in preference to ' advance', because doing so would preserve neutrality (which I think should be an aim if teaching/learning is to be economical and efficient) as well as be presenting the primary meaning of the form chosen (whilst "reserving" 'advance' for its more primary meaning(s*)).

*I'm not opposed to a form having multiple meanings (often they are related at at least a subconscious level), and if there is a concept that I need to teach that would be best expressed by using an "already taken" form, then I will marshall that form again. I can't remember in which book on vocabulary teaching I saw this sort of thinking (about the processes of selecting the most "appropriate" vocab) best expressed, but if I find the relevant tome and passage then I'll post it here.

[fluffyhamster]

Heh, have fun discussing the specifics of IE, guys! I really gotta dash now. I'm looking forward when I return next week to seeing what people made of the list that AC posted. See ya!

[Stephen Jones]

I append som examples of Lankan English. I have a book with a long list, but like all my books at present it is in Lanka not Saudi, so until Christmas I will have to limit myself to giving a few examples from memory. I suspect many of them will be the same in Indian English

upstairs house --- two storey house
annexe ---- an outbuilding attached to a house, possibly ex-servants quarters and often rented out separately
bungalow ----- not any one storey house but a largish bungalow in its own grounds, often belonging to the state and used as accommodation (or holiday accomodation) for professional civil servants
circuit bungalow --- a bungalow belonging to the state used to accommodate professional civil servants
outstation ---- anywhere outside of Colombo, normally used to refer to an official posting
channel ----- private medical service
pipe water ---- mains water
land phone --- fixed line telephone
boy ----- male servant of any age
security --- a watchman
hotel ---- either a hotel or a restaurant serving rice and curry or short eats. In a large city you will find both meanings. Outside the second meaning is the most common, and it has puzzled more than one tourist to find that a hotel never has any rooms
lodge --- a cheap boarding house
denting ---- a body repair shop
"the rascal's absconding" --- the suspect has jumped bail
security bail --- as opposed to cash bail (personal bail) the suspect has to produce one or more employed people acceptable to the court (normally civil servants ) who will act as guarantors
bugger - used in polite society as a mildly disrespectful term, and also used in the same way as the Anglo-Indian 'wallah' .
'baas' ----- used for skilled building worker, so we have 'baas' as equivalent to mason but also carpenter baas, or electrician baas
minister --- used for any elected official, down to local councillor
ragging ---- the custom among non-freshman university students to indulge in the physical and mental torture of freshman students as part of a so-called initiation ceremony
goon ----- gangster or thug
kasippu ------ moonshine
Pajero ---- the model of SUV associated with the rich and politicians, but also used as a generic term for any luxury SUV
short eats ----- snacks like sambosas or spring rolls
karoake ----- always a front for a girlie bar
commis ------ commission, often extorted or illegal

[metal56]

Given all the above, I'd probably teach 'bring forward' in preference to ' advance', because doing so would preserve neutrality (which I think should be an aim if teaching/learning is to be economical and efficient) as well as be presenting the primary meaning of the form chosen (whilst "reserving" 'advance' for its more primary meaning(s*)).

From where do you get the idea that "bring forward" is neutral?

bring forward

REGISTER

SPOKEN 25
FICTION 3
NEWS 23
ACADEMIC 8
NONFIC MISC 18
OTHER MISC 41

Source: The BNC.

[fluffyhamster]

Just popped into a net cafe to check on an email I was waiting for...couldn't resist a peek at Dave's while I was at it!

Bad news guys - my schedule for next week doesn't as it turns out have me at a school with no net access, so I'll be around earlier than I reckoned.

I was just going by the usage labels in my dictionaries. Actually, in relation to e.g. business or company meetings at least, either form would be regarding a presumably relatively formal arrangement, so the difference between them would perhaps be hard to define beyond a speaker expressing more familiarity with (and thus a probable preference for) one or other of the two forms. But I think some would say that in this context, it is slightly less formal than 'advance' and thus a little more "neutral" (in terms of formality).

I'm not quite sure what to make of the occurences per register that you've presented from the BNC, except that they likely point to meanings/uses beyond the first listed in the dictionaries.

[Stephen Jones]

From where do you get the idea that "bring forward" is neutral?

bring forward

REGISTER

SPOKEN 25
FICTION 3
NEWS 23
ACADEMIC 8
NONFIC MISC 18
OTHER MISC 41

Source: The BNC.

Doesn't its existence in all registers suggest that indeed it is neutral?

[fluffyhamster]

Doesn't its existence in all registers suggest that indeed it is neutral?

I would say 'Good point', but not when we might soon be given the breakdown for 'advance' (because it is likely to be as widespread, and in greater numbers, across the registers).