Investigating applied linguistics fora.

[metal56]

Source: The BNC.

Doesn't its existence in all registers suggest that indeed it is neutral?[/quote]

What a silly question.

[lolwhites]

What a silly question.

Why?

[metal56]

I would say 'Good point', but not when we might soon be given the breakdown for 'advance' (because it is likely to be as widespread, and in greater numbers, across the registers).

If you can suggest a way of searching the BNC for "advance" in its use as as synonym of "brought forward", let me know.

And while we are on about neutral words, would you also say that "brought up", meaning "raised", is neutral? Is "beverage" neutral? How about "interlocutor"? And, what do you mean by neutral?

[metal56]

Why?

Let's go this way round:

Why do you think "bring forward" appears less in the Academic register than in the Spoken or News registers?

[fluffyhamster]

I just noticed 'prebuttal' (cos it's mentioned towards the end of the Introduction to the LDOCE4). Here's the entry from the online version of the dictionary:

pre‧but‧tal /pri'b^tl/ [countable]
a statement that a politician makes saying that a criticism of them is false or unfair, before the criticism has been made [-> rebuttal]:
Wiggins issued a prebuttal against his opponent's speech, even before the text was delivered to reporters.

And from the online Oxford Advanced Learner's:

pre•but•tal /pri'b^tl/ noun [C, U] (informal) a statement saying or proving that a criticism is false or unfair before the criticism has actually been made

It doesn't appear in Cambridge's online.

It would be interesting to give "the average native speaker" a list of such words, some of (recent) native origin, and some of IE coinage, and see which found favour (i.e. were accepted as possible, even meaningful). I wonder if there's been any research akin to this?

I have to admit that I respond to 'prebuttal' more than 'prepone', but is it actually a necessary addition to the language? Is it, for example, actually that different from a 'counter-statement'?

Perhaps dictionary editors include "new" native items perhaps a little too readily sometimes?

[metal56]

It would be interesting to give "the average native speaker" a list of such words, some of (recent) native origin, and some of IE coinage, and see which found favour (i.e. were accepted as possible, even meaningful). I wonder if there's been any research akin to this?

What would the "average native speaker" think of the word "rebuttal"? And would you teach "rebuttal" in an average ESL/EFL classroom?

[fluffyhamster]

It would be interesting to give "the average native speaker" a list of such words, some of (recent) native origin, and some of IE coinage, and see which found favour (i.e. were accepted as possible, even meaningful). I wonder if there's been any research akin to this?

What would the "average native speaker" think of the word "rebuttal"? And would you teach "rebuttal" in an average ESL/EFL classroom?

I don't know what they, "on average", would think of it, which is precisely why I'm asking. And when I say "average native speaker", I mean somebody who's not particularly linguistically inclined, or following IE, or this thread etc. Maybe "your grandmother"?

I'd perhaps teach prebuttal (=Edit!), if a) 'rebuttal' were already of importance to students generally, or my students especially (I'm not sure it's frequent enough to be worth teaching explicitly, but in any case, if it were learned, the addition of 'prebuttal' wouldn't then be too much of a stretch); b) I were seeing for my own eyes that 'prebuttal' were also actually appearing quite frequently in e.g. the newspapers that I were reading (I haven't seen it in print, outside of a dictionary example, yet, but I'll doubtless remark upon it when I do finally see it because it's so memorable in itself, and also now part of this discussion here); and c) it seemed to be registering (amusement etc) in those other native speakers that I showed it to.

[metal56]

I mean somebody who's not particularly linguistically inclined, or following IE, or this thread etc. Maybe "your grandmother"?

I'm afraid my grandmother wouldn't fit your average model. She was Irish and a Gaelic speaker.

Still my point was more that one would have to be used to using "rebuttal" if one were to be expected to comment on "prebuttal", wouldn't one? I'm not sure if the "average native speaker" would be very familiar with either word.

c) it seemed to be registering (amusement etc) in those other native speakers that I showed it to.

The majority of native speakers would probably find the use of "to/for/by whom" quite amusing.

[fluffyhamster]

Heh, if an informant didn't "recognize" 'rebuttal' (admittedly when presented as a lone, decontextualized item?), let alone 'prebuttal', then I'd just shout 'Next!'.

[metal56]

Heh, if an informant didn't "recognize" 'rebuttal' (admittedly when presented as a lone, decontextualized item?), let alone 'prebuttal', then I'd just shout 'Next!'.

Good move.

b) I were seeing for my own eyes that 'prebuttal' were also actually appearing quite frequently in e.g. the newspapers that I were reading (I haven't seen it in print, outside of a dictionary example, yet

Strategic Planning for Public Relations, by Ronald D. Smith

Feminist Perspectives on Public Law, by Susan Millns

The Complete Idiot's Guide to a Smart Vocabulary By Paul McFedries

The Copyeditor's Handbook: A Guide for Book Publishing and Corporate Communications By Amy Einsohn

The Government of Risk: Understanding Risk Regulation Regimes By Henry Rothstein, Christopher ( Hood, Robert Baldwin)

[lolwhites]

The OED's ealiest citation of prebuttal is 1996, and I'd never heard of it. The texts Metal cites seem a bit heavily specialised to me (nb not intended as a criticism!) - I hope the fact that it turns up in an "complete idiots' guide" doesn't reflect on those who use the word I doubt I'd make a point of teaching it though I'd certainly explain it if it came up.

Three days ago I leaned the phrase to eat al desko, which apparently goes back to 1981; would anyone teach that?

[metal56]

Three days ago I leaned the phrase to eat al desko, which apparently goes back to 1981; would anyone teach that?

Dunno. Would you teach dinnertainment?

[lolwhites]

The trouble with the very recently coined words is that we don't know if they're going to catch on. If the students go on to remember and use them ten years later, when they've gone out of fashion, they'll sound very strange.

It's probably best for learners to err on the side of caution in this regard. And, no, I probably wouldn't teach dinnertainment, though it strikes me as a classic one they can work out for themselves.

[Anuradha Chepur]

Was it in this thread that we were discussing about call center outsourced to India?
I don't have time to verify it now.
OK, here is something not totally relevant to the discussion, nevertheless, interesting:
http://www.rediff.com/movies/2006/nov/22nalini.htm

[metal56]

The trouble with the very recently coined words is that we don't know if they're going to catch on. If the students go on to remember and use them ten years later, when they've gone out of fashion, they'll sound very strange.

As I said, to many ears, those who use "to/by/from/etc whom" sound very strange. And, do you keep a check on coinages to see how they are getting along? When would you begin introducing such coinage?

In my classes, we have a "coinage check" every two months. One or two students have the task of keeping an eye on new usage.