What to teach and what not.

<b>Forum for the discussion of Applied Linguistics </b>

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metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:54 am

and the fact remains that certain accents, constructions and registers are more useful than others.
Which registers are more useful that others?

Is the highlighted comment foremost in your mind when you teach the English you choose, or are compelled, to teach?

"Some usages are better than others, better because they are clearer, more effective, more pleasing, more sensitive, or sometimes better merely because a consensus of influential people prefers them."
Last edited by metal56 on Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:16 am

If the "influential people" are those who have the potential to offer (or deny) employment to my students in the future based on how they speak and write English, then I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't allow for that by teaching a kind of English preferred "by an influential majority". At the same time, when a student asks me straight if it is "better" not to say ain't, for example, I'll point out that while there is no linguistic reason to describe the form as inferior, it's best not to say it at a job interview.

As to which register is more useful, that will depend totally on the students' needs. At the university I work in, there are students doing English as a unit within their main courses, while others specialise in the language, literature and civilisation of English-speaking countries and need to be able to understand Shakespeare, Chaucer and Austin. Both sets of student will find different registers more useful. But you're a professional and knew that anyway, right?

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:26 am

If the "influential people" are those who have the potential to offer (or deny) employment to my students in the future based on how they speak and write English, then I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't allow for that by teaching a kind of English preferred "by an influential majority".
I understand, but that still doesn't answer the question about what to teach and what not. How do you judge what the "influential people" want? For sure, if working in or with Asia, many influential business people will expect a NES or NNES to know Englasian, for example.
But you're a professional and knew that anyway, right?
I didn't understand that you meant "in each context, certain registers are more useful than others".
and the fact remains that certain accents, constructions and registers are more useful than others.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:38 am

It should go without saying that some registers will only be appropriate in a relatively narrow range of contexts while others are usable over a wider range and therefore more useful. I think the regular (and most of the less regular) posters here have studied and taught language long enough not to need that fact pointed out to them.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:38 am

metal56 wrote:Tell me, in your opinion, is this forum only for discussions on ESL/EFL topics?
I'm not trying to define the forum, even if others are. I am interested in dialects, and a host of many topics that I would love to talk about whether or not it is germane to this forum. I was only talking about the differences between linguistics and applied linguistics because another member was implying that his discussion of issues was more germane than mine or others. In my opinion, I think a topic is germane to this forum if it has to do with usage, grammar, applied linguistics, and linguistics — and especially when applied to the classroom (but not necessarily). As long as the discussion is remotely concerned with these areas, I would cringe to think that certain viewpoints or ways of looking at those topics were taboo or censored — provided they're not abusive or indecent. I also know that linguistics and applied linguists focus on different things. They are different departments at various schools. But when talking about what topics are more germane, for those who really care, probably those concerned with applied linguistics would win over linguistics. But personally, I have fun and learn a lot from either those domains.
In addition, just because someone is concerned with the application of science (for example, technology) rather than the scientific process itself doesn't make that person or field of study necessarily unscientific, ungermane, mocking, or in need of psychological help. And certainly individuals can concern themselves with both the scientific process and the application. It doesn't have to be either one or the other. My motto is Discuss, and let others discuss. :)
Last edited by jotham on Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:52 am

As long as the discussion is remotely concerned with these areas, I would cringe to think that certain viewpoints or ways of looking at those topics were taboo or censored---
That's good to hear.
And certainly individuals can concern themselves with both the scientific process and the application.
Indeed they can, but on a forum that has the intention of influencing/power to influence students' views upon the language, the "teachers" here who mock certain usage, such as coinage and what they see as non-standard forms, should be moderated.

Something for all to consider, IMHO:

"Attitudes towards different varieties of English are also considered in terms of a possible negative impact on negotiation of business dealings in general."

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/v ... tId=857962

jotham
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Post by jotham » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:09 am

On lunchbreak, I often read and write posts very hurriedly and carelessly. I think I misunderstood something you said or got the threads mixed up and got way off track. When talking about mocking other's speech, were you referring to people being exasperated at irregardless?
Here's how I look at it. I don't think someone's use of it reveals their dialect or proud heritage. I think even the rich or well-educated are susceptible to making little errors of this kind. Can it be traced to any one dialect? It is a matter of trifling ignorance rather than beaming pride, so I don't see it as mocking to correct an unlogical mistake of the kind. It is like someone who thinks the Civil War started in 1860 instead of 1861. Correcting it is just a fine adjustment to their knowledge; it is polishing it, and without necessarily mocking them. Some people may use knowledge or correction as a tool to make themselves look smarter than others or to mock them, but that is definitely not the incentive of professional teachers or anyone on this forum.
In an ESL setting, the accusation of mocking is even more ridiculous, because students come to us with a clean slate: we couldn't possibly mock them by teaching them more proper ways from the beginning, since it won't involve correction of the usages you speak of.
All these corrections you seem to be against, such as ain't or might could or double negatives, are only minor adjustments, refinement, and icing on the cake. They aren't changing the fundamental nature of anyone's English. They aren't major to such a degree so as to force anyone to abandon his or her dialect. If they do, then perhaps such a dialect is better seen as a second language; and those speakers will want to learn both "languages" to better survive professionally — if that's what they want. English isn't the only language with such a situation.
I also wonder if accusations of mocking is stepping out of the dispassionate scientific look at language and moving into a political one, especially if it requires more delving. Whether or not such a topic is germane to the forum might also be in question.
Last edited by jotham on Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:09 am

Some people may use knowledge or correction as a tool to make themselves look smarter than others or to mock them, but that is definitely not the incentive of professional teachers or anyone on this forum.


I guess we should agree to disagree.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:26 am

metal56 wrote:
Some people may use knowledge or correction as a tool to make themselves look smarter than others or to mock them, but that is definitely not the incentive of professional teachers or anyone on this forum.


I guess we should agree to disagree.
In an ESL setting, the accusation of mocking is even more ridiculous, because students come to us with a clean slate:
Are all your students beginners? Check out how many teachers correct the ESLer who uses, for example, ain't by mocking the NESs who use it.
If they do, then perhaps such a dialect is better seen as a second language; and those speakers will want to learn both "languages" to better survive professionally---if that's what they want.
You should read about Standard English as a Second Dialect (SESD). I speak SESD. It is Standard English that is a second dialect/langauge for most people.
I also wonder if accusations of mocking is stepping out of the dispassionate scientific look at language and moving into a political one, especially if it requires more delving.
One thing for sure, much mocking of another's usage IS politically, and sometimes racially, motivated. Maybe such non-scientific behaviour requires being met by a non-scientific reaction.
Last edited by metal56 on Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:58 am

I don't remember any cases of students on this forum being mocked. What I remember is Shuntang being criticised for making baseless pronouncements about English when he clearly didn't know enough of the language to express himself properly. I also feel that students who post "please tell me what to write for my PhD" are fair game. But as for "mocking" anyone's use of the language, I'm not sure any of us here can claim the moral high ground.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:09 am

lolwhites wrote:But as for "mocking" anyone's use of the language, I'm not sure any of us here can claim the moral high ground.
You must have missed it. If you go over to the Globish thread, you might just catch the beginning of another bout of guffawing.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:30 am

I'm not sure how you define "mocking", metal, but I don't see anything out of order on that thread. There may be a couple of attempts at humour but I think valid points are made.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:35 am

lolwhites wrote:I'm not sure how you define "mocking", metal, but I don't see anything out of order on that thread. There may be a couple of attempts at humour but I think valid points are made.
Different strokes, I guess. If one considers it funny, on an Applied Linguistics forum, to compare attempts at a global/international English to language used by NES 3-year-olds, I must have missed the point.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:12 pm

metal56 wrote:
metal56 wrote:that is definitely not the incentive of professional teachers or anyone on this forum.


I guess we should agree to disagree.
I said professional teachers. I've only been on the forum for two weeks, and haven't witnessed mocking, if you're referring to recent attempts. I don't equate teaching Standard English and expressed concern for it as mocking.
Are all your students beginners? Check out how many teachers correct the ESLer who uses, for example, ain't by mocking the NESs who use it.
I live in Taiwan. I have never witnessed any non-native English speakers, beginning or advanced, using ain't. I rarely encounter it in native English speakers. Your personal experiences of ESL students who habitually say ain't and teachers who intransigently insist on whom at all times are totally foreign to mine.
much mocking of another's usage IS politically, and sometimes racially, motivated
When it really is mocking to exalt oneself or put down others, I agree it's possible. I've seen mocking the southern dialect to make the conservatives there and their viewpoint, for example, sound unintelligent and unsophisticated. But regarding professional teachers in the classroom, I just don't see it. I think it is concern for the well-being of students, in any field, be it math, science, or geography. Any race of people should be proficient in all these areas as well as others. Why should English be an exception? Mocking ebonics is racist, but teaching standard English is not: it benefits not only African-Americans who speak ebonics but also white people who speak Appalachian dialects.
Last edited by jotham on Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:29 pm

I don't equate teaching Standard English and expressed concern for it as mocking.
It depends how that expressed concern is expressed, doesn't it?
I rarely encounter it in native English speakers.
It's just a Google away:

15,500,000 English pages for ain't

:wink:
Your personal experiences of ESL students who habitually say ain't and teachers who intransigently insist on whom at all times are totally foreign to mine.
But we can still discuss those students who do use, or do ask questions about, ain't, can't we?
But regarding professional teachers in the classroom, I just don't see it.
Happens all over langauge fora.
I think it is concern for the well-being of students, in any field, be it math, science, or geography.
Sounds like "teacher as saint", to me. :evil:
Any race of people should be proficient in all these areas as well as others.
You expect whole races to be proficient in such things?!

Mocking ebonics is racist, but teaching standard English is not:
Unless, of course, one uses "scare tactics" - such as promises of eternal damnation, economic failure and inviting ridicule - to teach Standard english. It happens.

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