How come?

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JuanTwoThree
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How come?

Post by JuanTwoThree » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:02 pm

What do you suppose is the grammar of "How come (that) you know these things"?

Elision? Subjunctive?

Not that I'm going to lose any sleep over it.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:09 am

"How is it that you come to know that?"

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:31 am

Yes but if you're right it's not just elision but word order change as well: that "you" is in the wrong place.

It might be "How does it come about that you know that?"

Whatever, it's a question without an auxiliary which is odd and some kind of bare infinitive which is odd too.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:13 am

"How come" advice:

How come it has taken you so long to respond?

Use 'How come' a full clause in the positive statement form (S V O). Notice that this is an indirect question and requires a question mark (?).

http://esl.about.com/library/grammar/bl ... nation.htm

Questions with How Come

In conversational language, questions with "How come" are common. "How come" means Why, but it uses the word order for statements:

How come + subject + verb + other words?

Also, "How come" questions do not use do, does, or did unless the original statement has a negative verb using don't, doesn't, or didn't.

http://www.vnn.vn/vnn4/practice/grammar/07_t1.htm

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:08 am

Well I'm sure people find that very interesting but it doesn't shed any light on the grammar of the structure. But thanks.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:24 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:Well I'm sure people find that very interesting but it doesn't shed any light on the grammar of the structure. But thanks.
??
it uses the word order for statements
"Fact: you know these things. How come?"

Would you ask the same question/s about these structures?

How is it the case (that)...?

Why do you think (that) he's angry all the time?

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:35 am

What I'm after is an explanation for a bare infinitive after a question word that introduces a subordinate clause.
In other words the grammar of the two words "how come" not the grammar of what comes after, which doesn't seem to present any problems.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:41 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:In other words the grammar of the two words "how come" not the grammar of what comes after, which doesn't seem to present any problems.
Is the grammar with "how come"? I thought it was just an idiom.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:58 pm

Idioms are ungrammatical or can't be analysed grammatically?

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:07 pm

Could be poetic licence?

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:06 pm

http://www.lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/24/paper1216.pdf

and

http://www.unige.ch/lettres/linge/synta ... 414948.pdf

which is interesting about the rise of do but not especially relevant except in a footnote where it mentions "Why risk it?" as another question without do-support.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:13 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:Idioms are ungrammatical or can't be analysed grammatically?
What's the point in doing so? It cannot be "how came" or "how will come", so it's best to consider it a lexical item. "How come" is the "question word" and the whole is an indirect question.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:05 pm

Yes I take your point, about many idioms.

But interestingly, or not, the similar past structure, which I'll admit is a tad archaic, is "How came you to.....".

Questions without do-support are interesting. Not to everybody, though.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:02 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:Yes I take your point, about many idioms.

But interestingly, or not, the similar past structure, which I'll admit is a tad archaic, is "How came you to.....".

Questions without do-support are interesting. Not to everybody, though.
Do you think the present form is really "how come you to"? "How come" is not "what was the journey from a past point to this" (as in "how came you to..."), but is "how is it that this state of affairs exists."

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:22 am

Sorry if I gave that impression. I don't think I did.

No, the present is "How come (that) you......" . But as I said, there is a similar though not identical structure "How came you to....."

There also seems to be another archaic (if Wilkie Collins is archaic) "How come you to" (google it).

So that's three different uses of "come" without do-support, one current and two that were in use after do-support became pretty much generalised. As I said, interesting.

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