Race, US: class, UK.

[jotham]

He is attacking the black parents for speaking their mother tongue with their children at home, and with a fellow black they can reasonably presume capable of understanding it.

He is attacking black parents for not speaking English at home with their children, which would abet them in their future and education. It is their responsibility to raise them so that they aren't alienated from the rest of the nation they live in. It would be similar to Korean parents' responsibility to not speak only Korean to their kids. They make it a point to teach Korean as well as English: Korean so they can still talk to the Korean community and relatives — especially back home — and English so they can survive and even prosper in the country and make straight A's, which most Asians are known for.
There gets to be a point where the second- and third-generation Koreans speak English only and forget Korean as it becomes less necessary in the country — unless they have a linguistic interest. Just as our German, Irish, French, and Swedish gradually assimilated and prospered. Acculturization has been an ongoing process in the USA, but it only works insomuch as the ethnic group strives to be assimilated and cooperates in the process. It is a lack of this that Cosby was criticizing.

[jotham]

I assure you, the comment was wholly objective.

I was always taught the difference between statements of fact and opinion (maybe I shouldn't have said emotion). Now, you can give me factual statements and data that backs up your opinion, and those facts and statements could be judged to be as objective as 2+2=5. But to say that something is naive could never be objective, even if 100% of the people say so and even if every statement that backs up your opinion is objective, the opinion is still opinion — and that is where naivety squarely rests. But this is silly quibbling now.
Suffice it to say that I believe successful education puts everyone on a similar plane. Now if two students receive the same education, and one kid gets A's while the other gets F's (because of lack of effort, or even of ability), of course their chances in life will not be equal, as it shouldn't. The schools in the inner city aren't even giving them a quality education. Many students can't even read. Part of it has to do with the education they're receiving, and part of it has to do with their attitude toward academics. I can agree with you that the reality is that education and effort, where it is today, isn't equal, and that is why their chances aren't equal. My position is that if education and effort were equal (assuming good schools, and teachers who could draw out the best in them), their chances in life would be equal, or at least nearly equal. Part of that education is speaking standard English, and speaking it well, fluently, and logically.

[Stephen Jones]

He is attacking black parents for not speaking English at home with their children, which would abet them in their future and education.

What are they speaking, Chinese? Or are you incapable of constructing a restrictive relative clause, let alone distinguishing it from a non-restrictive one by use of articles and punctuation?

LOL

[jotham]

What are they speaking, Chinese? Or are you incapable of constructing a restrictive relative clause, let alone distinguishing it from a non-restrictive one by use of articles and punctuation? LOL

You know that when I said English, I meant Standard English. It's just informal, street talk and another definition (common people's definition) of the word that isn't as rigorously precise as the grammarian's English. But I thought you defended loose definitions of words that people on the street use. Are you correcting my imperfect English, Mr. Linguist? It's not always necessary to put in that qualifier, and I wanted to make the effective comparison of ebonics with Korean. Yes I know one is a dialect and the other isn't, but the reality is that someone who solely speaks a language — dialect or not — that significantly departs from standard English in vocabulary and grammar is going to have a harder time prospering in the USA or other primarily English-speaking country; and this isn't unique to English-speaking countries.
Encarta definition of English — the more loose and linguistic definition.

3. easily understood English: clear, understandable spoken or written English, as distinct from technical jargon, dialect, or nonstandard or incomprehensible speech or writing

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861608492
Furthermore, in the light of this apparently unexpected definition, my justification for using the non-restrictive remains intact.

[metal56]

But this is silly quibbling now.

Is that an objective statement?

Suffice it to say that I believe successful education puts everyone on a similar plane.

"Similar" is an interesting word.

Now if two students receive the same education, and one kid gets A's while the other gets F's (because of lack of effort, or even of ability), of course their chances in life will not be equal, as it shouldn't.

My position is that if education and effort were equal (assuming good schools, and teachers who could draw out the best in them), their chances in life would be equal, or at least nearly equal.

So race doesn't even enter into it, right?

[metal56]

He is attacking black parents for not speaking English at home with their children, which would abet them in their future and education.

What are they speaking then, Ibo?

It's just informal, street talk and another definition (common people's definition) of the word that isn't as rigorously precise as the grammarian's English.

Is that your linguistics-based evaluation? Are you suddenly an expert on AAVE, for example?

... the reality is that someone who solely speaks a language---dialect or not---that significantly departs from standard English in vocabulary and grammar is going to have a harder time prospering in the USA

What other things could prevent such people from prospering in the USA?

[jotham]

So race doesn't even enter into it, right?

That's why I qualified my description of equal to nearly equal: to account for some instances of racist bastards out there evaluating skin color rather than ability when hiring. Except for isolated incidents, I don't think it's common enough that it's really hindering people — education and ability being equal. At least not in the USA. The place I saw the most evidence of racism was on college campus, where people would eat in the cafeteria in racially separated groups, and where racial ephithets or accusations of racism were not uncommonly thrown. In the Army, I probably saw the least or no evidence of that. People worked together in unity on common goals and missions, were promoted based on objective qualifications, and struck close friendships that weren't based on race and with little awareness of the fact.

Quote:
--But this is silly quibbling now.
--Is that an objective statement?

I didn't say that posts should be bereft of opinions. It just helps that you have something substantive to back your opinions when criticizing other's positions so they can be responded to. Otherwise, it becomes a game of "yes, it's good" — "no, it's rubbish" — "on the contrary, it's brilliant" — "quite mistaken; you're naive" — "oh, yeah? At least I'm not a $%#@ dunderhead!" etc. And as people's opinion of each other gets amply aired, the real matter remains undiscussed. Besides, I was characterizing my own behavior of going through the trouble of pointing it out — but it happens often enough to address.
Quote:

--It's just informal, street talk and another definition (common people's definition) of the word that isn't as rigorously precise as the grammarian's English.
--Is that your linguistics-based evaluation? Are you suddenly an expert on AAVE, for example?

I don't mind calling the definition regular, precise English, instead of slang. That just makes my use of the word all the more justified — and the criticism against it all the less sturdy of a leg to stand on.

[metal56]

In the Army, I probably saw the least or no evidence of that. People worked together in unity on common goals and missions, were promoted based on objective qualifications, and struck close friendships that weren't based on race and with little awareness of the fact.

Which man's army were you in?

Overt racism does exist in the US Army I have seen it and been a victim of it. For example: My white company commander said to me that he has racist feelings but he is trying to work through it. The battalion commander said, “At least he’s honest.” Then live ammunition was found on my military vehicle while parked in the motorpool.

http://whiteprivilege.com/2002/01/29/ra ... tary/feed/

It just helps that you have something substantive to back your opinions when criticizing other's positions so they can be responded to.

It helps if one admits one's naivety.

I don't mind calling the definition regular, precise English, instead of slang.

??? What's imprecise about slang?

[jotham]

So is he saying that his Company commander (or Battalion commander) planted that ammunition? Or was that a separate incident? I find this unbelievable given there are potent, well-known channels, like an EO (equal opportunity) officer, to report overt racism: these people have so much power and can start a maelstom of investigations, that no commander would be caught dead saying such irresponsible things. Is this the best source you could find (White Privilege) to support your beliefs? Now what kind of objective persons or viewpoints do you suppose this discussion forum is going to invite and attract? (...well, I guess it attracted you.) Might this be the equivalent, on the opposite end, of finding a quote on a Ku Klux Klan site and citing it as a legitimate authority on how life really is? And after swallowing this assertion with wide-open, starry eyes and without any apparent suspicion or second thoughts, you then accuse me of being naive? At any rate, I did find a variety of opinions even on this forum, from A Black Paratrooper:

Politics belong in the civilian world, not in the armed forces. You have to earn your way with blood, sweat, and pain to be part of the military family, whether you are black, white, oriental, or hispanic. We have stanards and if they are not met, you don’t make it.

We're getting off subject and I won't respond to any more racism issues. Bring it back to language.

[metal56]

Is this the best source you could find (White Privilege) to support your beliefs?

There are many more sources, but as you don't want to discuss this further...

[jotham]

I'm not shying away from the issue — just not on this forum for language. Maybe we can talk about it on White Privelege.

[metal56]

I'm not shying away from the issue---just not on this forum for language. Maybe we can talk about it on White Privelege.

What does "forum for language" mean?

Applied linguistics is concerned with using linguistic theory to address real-world problems. It has been traditionally dominated by the fields of language education and second language acquisition. There is a recurrent tension between those who regard the field as limited to the study of language learning, and those who see it as encompassing all applications of linguistic theory. Both definitions are widely used.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_linguistics

[jotham]

Democrat black presidential candidate Obama is beginning to sound like Cosby:

But, he added, parents also have to "turn off the television set and put away the Game Boy and make sure that you're talking to your teacher and that we get over the anti-intellectualism that exists in some of our communities where if you conjugate your verbs and if you read a book that somehow means you are acting white," he said.

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_p ... 88&eddate=

[metal56]

Democrat black presidential candidate Obama is beginning to sound like Cosby:

But, he added, parents also have to "turn off the television set and put away the Game Boy and make sure that you're talking to your teacher and that we get over the anti-intellectualism that exists in some of our communities where if you conjugate your verbs and if you read a book that somehow means you are acting white," he said.

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_p ... 88&eddate=

Again your naive approach to discussions is showing.

[metal56]

Democrat black presidential candidate Obama is beginning to sound like Cosby:

But, he added, parents also have to "turn off the television set and put away the Game Boy and make sure that you're talking to your teacher and that we get over the anti-intellectualism that exists in some of our communities where if you conjugate your verbs and if you read a book that somehow means you are acting white," he said.

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_p ... 88&eddate=

Again your naive approach to discussions is showing.

And what about this statement?

I'm not shying away from the issue---just not on this forum for language.

Did you forget that this is a forum for language?