<b>Forum for the discussion of Applied Linguistics </b>
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metal56
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by metal56 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:31 am
fluffyhamster wrote:... such a teacher thus goes from description to recommendation (when pressed), and prescription doesn't enter the picture.
Hmm. When a doctor prescribes a certain treatment, medicine, etc. does he mean to say "take this" or "I recommend you take this"? Just a thought.
And, anyone...your thoughts on this statement:
"Clearly, the prescriptive approach is easier to teach—there is always one right answer; the descriptive approach may offer several possible answers, each appropriate in one or another context."
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jotham
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by jotham » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:24 pm
By the way, I resent your attempt to write off my views as "politically correct".
Well, I didn't say your views were politically correct. I meant avoiding language that suggests correctness about real sentences because of attitudes and philosophies popular in some circles that shun certainty about anything in life — i.e. post-modernism. I think I misunderstood you, also. I thought you were talking about a classroom event or exercise that was observed once in a while — which I thought could be a positive event. Actually, you were talking about a frame of mind, a general approach to learning language. I agree that that can hinder students, even though most adults seem to learn faster and more comfortably by analyzing things rather than absorbing them, as children learn best, or learn at all. I shouldn't have quickly jumped to conclusions. I sometimes read and react quickly when time is of the essence. I should have realized from earlier posts that your views were more moderated than, say, Metal, who sometimes I think posts irrelevant questions or makes outlandish comments half of which he doesn't believe or really want to know the answer, but just seeing how it all plays out, to play devil's advocate to generate interest and discussion. It works, I learn a lot, and I take it all in stride, but sometimes, I strive to convince, when there may not be anything to convince of in the first place. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:01 pm
And, anyone...your thoughts on this statement:
"Clearly, the prescriptive approach is easier to teach—there is always one right answer; the descriptive approach may offer several possible answers, each appropriate in one or another context."
I think it's very revealing. Giving the students a nice, easy "rule" means they go away happy and think you're a wonderful teacher for making it so clear. It's only later that the problems begin, usually with a new teacher... In the UK I spent a lot of time dealing with the "But my teacher back home said..." attitude.
Jotham - apology accepted. It's certainly the case that adults want to learn "rules", though how much of that is down to adult mindset, and how much is down to the fact that that's how they were taught at school? Any European or American over thirty probably first learned a foreign language through grammar/translation, after all.
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metal56
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by metal56 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:02 pm
jotham wrote: I sometimes read and react quickly when time is of the essence. I should have realized from earlier posts that your views were more moderated than, say, Metal, who sometimes I think posts irrelevant questions or makes outlandish comments half of which he doesn't believe or really want to know the answer, but just seeing how it all plays out, to play devil's advocate to generate interest and discussion.
Heard of the expression "to chew the fat"?
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metal56
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by metal56 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:04 pm
lolwhites wrote:And, anyone...your thoughts on this statement:
"Clearly, the prescriptive approach is easier to teach—there is always one right answer; the descriptive approach may offer several possible answers, each appropriate in one or another context."
I think it's very revealing. Giving the students a nice, easy "rule" means they go away happy and think you're a wonderful teacher for making it so clear. It's only later that the problems begin, usually with a new teacher... In the UK I spent a lot of time dealing with the "But my teacher back home said..." attitude.
Yes, I've experienced the same. Many students end up thinking that you're a bad teacher.
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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:47 pm
metal56 wrote:Yes, I've experienced the same. Many students end up thinking that you're a bad teacher.
Ever had a student shout "But is it correct? YES OR NO?!??"
OK, an extreme example, but it really happened. Fortunately most of the rest of the class were a bit more open minded.
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metal56
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by metal56 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:36 pm
Ever had a student shout "But is it correct? YES OR NO?!??"
Something similar, and mainly from German EFL students.
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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:26 pm
Hmmm, mine was a German too.
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metal56
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by metal56 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:19 am
lolwhites wrote:Hmmm, mine was a German too.
I've had many Germans tell me that contractions are poor use of English and phrasal verbs are only used by common, uneducated people.

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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:45 am
I discussed this with a German friend in the UK who had managed to let go of this kind of baggage. As I don't speak German and have never lived in Germany I have no way of verifying this, but he thought it was down to both the German education system and the language. Apparently German is less flexible than English or, as he put it, "often there's only one way to say things", so as soon as they have a choice (e.g. in the station vs at the station), they assume that only one form must be "correct", or at least "better". I was often asked "Which is correct?"..."OK, which is better?". He also said that German NNS teachers actively encouraged this attitude e.g. by only accepting one answer in school exams.
I'm reluctant to stereotype a nation of 75 million people, but what he said certainly made some sense. It would be interesting to teach in Austria and see if attitudes were different there.
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jotham
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by jotham » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:00 am
I don't think this is peculiar to Germans. I always get asked that by Taiwanese staff, teachers, and students. It doesn't upset me; I think it's a legitimate question. I've taken on the mindset and accepted the premise — and they have too — that some situations will have a correct response, some a better response, and still others equally acceptable responses. If there's a correct answer, I tell them what it is. If there isn't, I tell them which is better, which sometimes depends on context. If there isn't a correct or better answer, I simply tell them that both or all equally suffice.
Incidentally, many Taiwanese staff also believe contractions are bad. I spend a lot of time putting contractions back in place to render texts more natural. It is probably frowned upon in really formal situations, but it has turned into a myth that second-language learners get somewhere; I never learned it in the native-speaking world.
William Zinsser,
On Writing Well:
Your style will obviously be warmer and truer to your personality if you use contractions like "I'll" and "won't" when they fit comfortably into what you're writing. "I'll be glad to see them if they don't get mad" is less stiff than "I will be glad to see them if they do not get mad." There's no rule against such informality — trust your ear and your instincts."
By the way, Metal, how did you do an M-dash on that earlier quote of yours? Or was that just pasted in there?
Last edited by
jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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metal56
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by metal56 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:16 am
I'm reluctant to stereotype a nation of 75 million people, but what he said certainly made some sense.
I've lived in Germany and found many stereotypes. I have friends and students who are married to Germans and all our stories match.
Jotham:
I always get asked that by Taiwanese staff, teachers, and students.
Get asked what? I get told, not asked.
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metal56
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by metal56 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:24 am
By the way, Metal, how did you do an M-dash on that earlier quote of yours? Or was that just pasted in there?
Where?
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Miss Elenious
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by Miss Elenious » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:26 pm
When I first read about the dinstinction of grammmar into descriptive and prescriptive I was a university student in my first year of studies. I was impressed because until then I thought that grammar books were like Holly Bibles and I really liked the idea of describing language, which is a living thing, rather than setting rules and hinder its change.
When i read metal's post I thought it merely refered to an academic aspect of the phrase and not it being applied to teaching. I would never use such a rule in my classes because I see no point in students memorising it, especially with the verb disallow. [/quote]
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metal56
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by metal56 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:13 pm
Miss Elenious wrote:
When i read metal's post I thought it merely refered to an academic aspect of the phrase and not it being applied to teaching. I would never use such a rule in my classes because I see no point in students memorising it, especially with the verb disallow.
What would you do if one of your students produced the sentence "I'd like to can swim" in class? What would you say to him/her? And if the same student said "Is that sentence allowed in English?", what would be your reply?