prescriptivist statement or as a descriptivist one

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jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:06 am

When I first read about the dinstinction of grammmar into descriptive and prescriptive I was a university student in my first year of studies. I was impressed because until then I thought that grammar books were like Holly Bibles and I really liked the idea of describing language, which is a living thing, rather than setting rules and hinder its change.
The differences aren't so simply summarized like this; they run much deeper than that. Grammarians believe there are principles of clarity and effective communication; they endeavor to discover those principles and teach others the skill. They militate for high standards and "perfection" in the language, or the closest thing to it, according to those principles, which stress logic, order, and academia. Those who are descriptionists deny that such principles exist and think they are figments of someone's imagination or made up and invented.
Most languages in the world — especially secluded tribes or groups in Africa, China, or almost anywhere — are devoid of the grammarian's effect, and so the linguistic approach prevails unopposed: no guidance — just let it be. These languages are living and they no doubt change every generation, but they don't develop along logical, analytical, or academic lines. English has been influenced for a long time, many centuries, by the grammarian's touch (much earlier than the linguist's), which parallels the development of all the other concurrent fields in science, arts, and philosophy — all happening at the same time. It wouldn't make sense to leave out English as a field of study to develop in the light of all these other developments.
In science, we discovered principles in physics regarding gravity, motion, and inertia. Those principles exist and affect us whether or not we recognize them. In the field of music, Bach, in around 1700, discovered — not invented — the principles of harmony that are best pleasing to the ear. Songs in popular music today that incorporate most of these univeral rules prove to be the most popular and well-liked.
Likewise, the grammarians are discovering rules and principles that aid communication. If they make a rule that doesn't aid, then it's a bad or false rule. It doesn't mean rules don't exist or that following principles is a bad idea.
And so one main difference between the two camps is that grammarians believe there are standards that need to be discovered and then used effectively. (Some of those principles work only in the English language, but a good many transcend languages.) Linguists deny such clear-cut standards exist, but that we just haphazardly learn them from our mother or people and culture around us, Therefore, the grammarian isn't discovering stuff, but just inventing, just making stuff up and forcing other people to accept it, they say. And there can't be a more clear or effective manner of saying things — any way is just as good as any other.
The difference in opinion regarding the existence of principles explains also some of the rift and fallout between Chomsky's American brand of linguistics and the European functionalist brand: Chomsky thinks that people have an inbred capacity to learn languages, which are based on universal principles. He also says that words exist to express and serve the universal principles of thought, which exists in all peoples. Functionalists say that no such principles exist, and that the words themselves give rise to "thought." So it's useless to "perfect" words, the language, or communication.
The "rules"of grammar you speak of — I prefer principles — help you more accurately express your thoughts if you avail yourself of these rules — but they only work if you think. I don't know about functionalists, but I do. :lol:
Last edited by jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:27 am

Although this isn't the first time that you've mentioned 'grammarians' (etc), I'm still not sure what you mean by the term, Jotham. I just sense that it not a 'descriptivist' way of thinking (in your thinking) and would therefore seem implicitly prescriptivist (by which I mean, 'not good or ideal, though it deals in "ideals" ').

To me, it would be better to concentrate more on just description. That is, if it can be empirically established as a fact/set of facts (and surely it now can) that people in similar contexts tend to produce similar constructions, then you have your "perfection" right there (of an admittedly functional variety - but what's wrong with what "works"?). Furthermore I think you are on shaky ground comparing the development of more technical English(es) with the idea of a more "perfectly developed" English generally; and how are the principles that generativists have attempted to uncover an aid to expression for laymen let alone language mavens (I mean, look at the average stock of sentences allowed and disallowed in attempts to construct generative grammars). But I would agree that you 'can't go wrong' if you choose to follow that way of "thinking".

So, I am not opposed to questioning things, and we shouldn't ever take anything completely for granted, but sometimes I do rather get the impression that you're playing with words and spinning dichotomies mainly for your own amusement (but then, I do so love the opportunity your posts occassionally give me to hear the sound of my own voice in reply LOL).
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:37 am

metal56 wrote:
fluffyhamster wrote:... such a teacher thus goes from description to recommendation (when pressed), and prescription doesn't enter the picture.
Hmm. When a doctor prescribes a certain treatment, medicine, etc. does he mean to say "take this" or "I recommend you take this"? Just a thought.

And, anyone...your thoughts on this statement:

"Clearly, the prescriptive approach is easier to teach—there is always one right answer; the descriptive approach may offer several possible answers, each appropriate in one or another context."
That sounds a bit "Austinian"!

When a doctor says 'Take this' (or words to that effect) there is no need to add more to the (implicit or otherwise) bare imperative - there's not usually much doubt (assuming the doctor's diagnosis is correct) that failing to follow the course of treatment is not really an option.

But obviously in the case of language no teacher could ever be so certain as to prescribe only one form and proscribe all others. :wink:

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:41 am

.
Grammarians believe there are principles of clarity and effective communication; they endeavor to discover those principles and teach others the skill. They militate for high standards and "perfection" in the language, or the closest thing to it, according to those principles, which stress logic, order, and academia.
You mean prescriptive grammarians, right?
The differences aren't so simply summarized like this; they run much deeper than that.
This looks like an attempt to summarize in a simple way:
Those who are descriptionists deny that such principles exist and think they are figments of someone's imagination or made up and invented.
Most languages in the world---especially secluded tribes or groups in Africa, China, or almost anywhere---are devoid of the grammarian's effect, and so the linguistic approach prevails unopposed: no guidance---just let it be.
Are you sure?
In science, we discovered principles in physics regarding gravity, motion, and inertia. Those principles exist and affect us whether or not we recognize them. In the field of music, Bach, in around 1700, discovered---not invented---the principles of harmony that are best pleasing to the ear.
Pleasing to whose ears?
Songs in popular music today that incorporate most of these univeral rules prove to be the most popular and well-liked.
So, are you saying that Standard English is the most popular and well-liked form of English?
Last edited by metal56 on Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:46 am

Actually grammarians study only grammar books.
Language in use is not their area of interest, nor do they consider it important.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:50 am

Although this isn't the first time that you've mentioned 'grammarians' (etc), I'm still not sure what you mean by the term, Jotham. I just sense that it not a 'descriptivist' way of thinking (in your thinking) and would therefore seem implicitly prescriptivist
Yes, I mean someone on the prescriptive side. But not all prescriptivists are grammarians, I suppose. Perhaps I mean the ones who discover principles on writing and speaking and then write books on them or teach others in them. I would consider your own Fowler a grammarian, and a very educated one at that — he was vastly familiar with the field of linguistics in his day and etymology, and it underpinned many of his judgements.
To me, it would be better to concentrate more on just description. That is, if it can be empirically established as a fact/set of facts (and surely it now can) that people in similar contexts tend to produce similar constructions, then you have your "perfection" right there (of an admittedly functional variety - but what's wrong with what "works"?)
I don't think anything is wrong with what works. Everyone can get by in life without being educated, without knowing how to add numbers or play an instrument. So why bother? Everyone isn't going to be a skilled pianist, or even a musician, and not everyone will be well-educated. But perhaps the more people who are, the better our society will attain greater ideals, inventions, lifestyles, etc. I think we can see the effects and benefits of widespread education in the general population of our own countries, compared to a good many other countries. In the light of this, my question is perhaps opposite yours: instead of what's wrong with just letting people be ignorant of writing skills, math skills, science, etc. — my question is what's wrong with people being educated about all these areas? And what's wrong with taking a little more effort learning how to write well or speak effectively (when needed)? Isn't it just another part of education, able to further our society?
Furthermore I think you are on shaky ground comparing the development of more technical English(es) with the idea of a more "perfectly developed" English generally
I don't understand.
and how are the principles that generativists have attempted to uncover an aid to expression for laymen let alone language mavens (I mean, look at the average stock of sentences allowed and disallowed in attempts to construct generative grammars).
I must have mislead you here. I didn't mean to say that generativists were helping people express things better. I was just saying that they were alike with grammarians, musicians, and physicists in that they discover and recognize principles. I think I was saying that grammarians and generativists often butt heads with functionalists for the same reasons, the denial versus existence of universal principles.
Last edited by jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:51 am

The principles unearthed by generativists are of aid to computational linguists in machine processing of language, developing sms packages in different languages, machine parsing, etc.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:55 am

But generativists are linguists studying why it is as it is and not grammarians who tell us how it should be.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:56 am

Actually grammarians study only grammar books.
Language in use is not their area of interest, nor do they consider it important.
Both the descriptivist and prescriptivist take current usage into account. The two camps are different, but this isn't the issue that separates them.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:59 am

But a prescriptivist will frown at current usage in case it is different from what is prescribed. A desriptivist won't.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:59 am

So, are you saying that Standard English is the most popular and well-liked form of English?
No, I didn't say or infer that. Neither did grammarians invent Standard English. They only discover principles that help people speak Standard English more efficaciously, or even entertainingly. The rhetorician's tools may bring a smile or tears to the eye, by studied techniques, just as skilled composers and musicians can. Such speakers, composers, and musicians will receive more adulation from listeners.
Last edited by jotham on Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:04 am

But a prescriptivist will frown at current usage in case it is different from what is prescribed. A desriptivist won't.
A prescriptivist will frown at new fads that don't comport with the rules of language or logic. Many of these fads come and go, and never get to the "current usage" stage. Prescriptivists hope to guide that process in a more logical way. They don't always succeed — such as with lectern versus podium. They don't frown at established usages that are hundreds of years old, though they be illogical.
Last edited by jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:10 am

Prescriptivists hope to guide that process in a more logical way.
They hope to control the process because they don't want to change their prescription, perhaps?

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:12 am

Perhaps — but they can never have absolute power over a language and never had all through history, even if they wanted it. English has changed very much in three hundred or four hundred years as any language despite the fact that grammarians were very active all through that time. They helped evolve English into a more logical and intelligent language (instead of haphazardly), able to express thoughts clearly in all subjects of endeavor.
Last edited by jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

jotham
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Post by jotham » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:05 am

But generativists are linguists studying why it is as it is and not grammarians who tell us how it should be.
Yes, that's right. I was making the distinction between generativist linguists and functional linguists. Prescriptivists don't usually butt heads with generativists, but rather the functionalists.

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