prescriptivist statement or as a descriptivist one

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:18 am

I just thought of another thread that Jotham at least might like to get his logical mind around:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=2246

Take note of that thread's title!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:50 am

By the way, Jotham, have you seen David Crystal's The Fight for English? It covers a lot of ground pretty painlessly.

One thing I found interesting (i.e. a bit ironic) was that after looking at the decline then disappearance of grammar from UK school-leaving exams in the '60's, Crystal relates how he was "horrified" to hear a first-year undergraduate in what must've been the seventies ask if a preposition had anything to do with mounting a horse - it's like even the descriptivists lose something from their bag of tricks and patter when precriptivism's been given the boot.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:56 am

Crystal relates how he was "horrified" to hear a first-year undergraduate in what must've been the seventies ask if a preposition had anything to do with mounting a horse - it's like even the descriptivists lose something from their bag of tricks and patter when precriptivism's been given the boot.

That story doesn't surprise me. I've been teaching ESL/EFL for 25 years and have met many NNES who do not even know what a noun or adverb is, let alone a proposition. I think even the many of us who were taught terminology at school forget the terminology soon after we leave.

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:25 am

By the way, Jotham, have you seen David Crystal's The Fight for English?

No, I haven't; it sounds interesting. The situation in UK is quite different than in the US. I can't imagine having so many dialect variations within a short distance of each other. Given the circumstance, I can sympathize with your distaste of one little dialect being crowned standard by some haphazard reason. Is such dialect variation the norm in other countries as well, or is the UK particularly dialect dense? Or is the US particularly dialect light compared to average?
Yeah, I guess I too would have been shocked about a COLLEGE student not knowing what a preposition is. I remember diagramming sentences in sixth grade; just those exercises alone kept the concepts firmly ingrained in my head all my life.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:28 am

Actually I just remembered Crystal's story better. He'd launched into part of a lecture with 'You all know about the injunction to not end a sentence with a preposition, right?' when more than a few present timidly asked, 'Please, what's a preposition?'. Anyway, it just made me wonder if there'll ever be a time when the description can and will stand alone, or is prescriptivism always the necessary evil, there to catalyze things, create sparks? It sometimes seems like they're in a sort of symbiosis, doesn't it!

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

Anyway, it just made me wonder if there'll ever be a time when the description can and will stand alone, or is prescriptivism always the necessary evil, there to catalyze things, create sparks?

I'm not sure I'm following: are you saying that being ignorant of nouns or prepositions is an ideal goal, or perfect descriptivism? I thought even descriptivists worked within the grammatical framework.

It sometimes seems like they're in a sort of symbiosis, doesn't it!

That can't be a bad thing.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:58 am

jotham wrote:
Anyway, it just made me wonder if there'll ever be a time when the description can and will stand alone, or is prescriptivism always the necessary evil, there to catalyze things, create sparks?
I'm not sure I'm following: are you saying that being ignorant of nouns or prepositions is an ideal goal, or perfect descriptivism? I thought even descriptivists worked within the grammatical framework.
It sometimes seems like they're in a sort of symbiosis, doesn't it!
That can't be a bad thing.

Yes, everyone needs a grasp of at least some (form of) grammar.

I'm not quite sure what the subject of Crystal's lecture was, but it probably wasn't about just grammar, because it would be easier then to simply say 'Here is this form X in a variety of contexts, where it can be seen to be functioning as a preposition (and/or a... etc)'; no, he was surely defining his approach (a descriptivist one) by saying what it was not...and I just feel it is a shame that there is a need for wasting time at all in this way (but that is mainly the prescriptionists' fault).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:29 am

That can't be a bad thing.

To me it is a bad thing: I can't see any need for prescriptivism when discussing language use.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:32 am

metal56 wrote:
That can't be a bad thing.
To me it is a bad thing: I can't see any need for prescriptivism when discussing language use.

Still, looking at the history of prescriptivism could be argued as providing an interesting way (for some) into, and a departure point for, descriptive approaches to language. The only thing is (Chomsky argued), simply describing language in "detail" (trivial, surface ~) tells us little or nothing about "it" (it, like, IT, man!).

(Yes, I am definitely implying that generativists strike me as being precriptively inclined - their rules aren't made/formulated to be broken, dammit! Give ME a break, AC!

).

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:45 am

Many academic disciplines, especially in the sciences, are prescriptively inclined and admit universal principles: biology, physics, chemistry, math, economics, etc. Functionalists are kind of a lone island (perhaps Elba), that often butts heads with the other departments, and, with their particular philosophy, perhaps seeks to conquer and rule them someday by force (rather than reason, logic, or democracy).

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:35 am

(Yes, I am definitely implying that generativists strike me as being precriptively inclined - their rules aren't made/formulated to be broken, dammit! Give ME a break, AC! ).

There is a saying in my language that you can wake up a person who is sleeping, but you can't wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep.

I am taking a break and I'm off to the gym.