The death of "shall".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:16 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:
And what about short answers? Does anybody, or did anybody ever, switch shall for will?

"Get me a cold beer!

Will you die of thirst if I don't?

Yes, I shall."

Surely not.

You first have to ask why it sounds odd or uncommon to ask "shall you...?" If you go back to the above comment: "If it's anything to do with you (the listener)... shall you...?", you can see that "shall", in all appropriate uses, explicitly involves the speaker in the "inevitability" of the action. With "shall you", the speakers suggests that the listener be explicitly involved in the action. The inevitabilty is objective with "will you die of thirst/I will die of thirst", but not with "I shall die of thirst", which is why I think the use "I shall die..." is odd.

I agree with Lewis who says that "shall is appropriate (for those British native speakers of English who use shall and will) when the speaker's direct involvement in the creation of the inevitability is involved.".

Consider these:

What time will we arrive?
What time shall we arrive?

Only in the latter is the listener involved in the creation of the inevitability of the action.

See how odd this is:

If it's anything to do with you, what time will we arrive?

but not this:

If it's anything to do with you, what time shall we arrive?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:22 am

Perhaps not there, because of the archaic style.

But let me ask you this:

"Get me a cold beer or I'll die of thirst"

Do you honestly think that 'll represents "shall"?

Again, not unless the speaker feels he/she will be involved in the creation of the inevitability, would "ll mean shall there.

How about here? Is 'll will, is it shall, or could it be either? Remember that shall has a weak form, an unstressed form, all of it's own.* "Will only has "'ll". Why would shall need two weak forms?

"Get me a cold beer or I'll slap you one!".

And would there be no difference in meaning here, IYO?

We Shall/Will Overcome. (1,2,3...sing!)

Finally, what about the meaning of shall here?

Don't worry, I shall be there to meet the train.. Dictionaries give the meaning as "certainly will". To do the same with "will", one has to stress "will":

I shall be there to meet the train. (certainly will)
I shull be there to meet the train. (weak form)
I WILL be there to meet the train. (certainly will)
I will be there to meet the train. (unmarked)
I'll be there to meet the trian. (weak form)

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:33 am

I don't think I ever consider the possibility that 'll is anything other than "will"

As for "We shall overcome" I laughed when I read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Shall_Overcome

Guess what the song was originally called!

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:54 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:As for "We shall overcome" I laughed when I read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Shall_Overcome

Guess what the song was originally called!

Guess they believed in the weak inevitability of overcoming whatever it was they wanted to overcome.

Lotus · Post by **Lotus** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:20 pm

Sorry, Playmates, but I shan't bother my head about all this.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:54 pm

Lotus wrote:Sorry, Playmates, but I shan't bother my head about all this.

Why did you bother even saying you shan´t?

Lotus · Post by **Lotus** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:58 am

Sorry, Metal. It's just my quirky way of agreeing that most Americans don't bother with the differences. I learned the "shall, will,will" in school, way back in the dark ages, but even then it was a contrived, unnatural way of speaking; at least it was for my classmates and me. We had a good chuckle over it, made fun of it, then used it only for passing a test. I don't think the question is whether or not the use of shall is passing in American English. At this point, I think it's good and dead. And, hold onto your hat, no one misses it and nobody cares.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:57 am

I learned the "shall, will,will" in school, way back in the dark ages, but even then it was a contrived, unnatural way of speaking; at least it was for my classmates and me.

Problem is, the shall, will, will you learned in school was nonsense as a rule. Fine for young minds just beginning to use the language and for teachers who love an easy life, but inadequate in explaining the real use of shall in British, and even in American, English. If you take the time to read the above posts, you'll see what I mean.

I understand your need for laughter though: I get the same need when I hear Americans saying thing such as "Did you eat yet". Makes me feel sorry for the poor things because they haven't yet learned to use the present perfect correctly.

Lotus · Post by **Lotus** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:28 am

I understand your need for laughter though: I get the same need when I hear Americans saying thing such as "Did you eat yet". Makes me feel sorry for the poor things because they haven't yet learned to use the present perfect correctly

.

Now, Metal, play nice.

Your particular example fails to account for the differences in vernaculars. There are more English vernaculars spoken than there are English speaking countries. In my home town, the example you quoted is most generally rendered, "Ja-et-yet?" As we all know, spoken vernacular and written language are not the same thing at all, at all.

Still, I do understand your reaction. I have the same reaction whenever I hear British friends talk about what they did "at" the weekend, or when they replace initial /th/ with /f/.

In most American vernaculars, the use of "shall" is either fading or dead. The only ways it is still used are probably, as JuanTwoThree pointed out:

"Shall I ........?" and "Shall we.........?" where it remains the shortest way of seeking a decision that somehow binds the asker to do what the answerer says.

However, there are other acceptable ways to say the same thing.

Shall I... ? = Why don't I... /
Shall we... / = Let's...

One's choice is dictated by who is being addressed and the formality of the situation. Usually. There are those individuals who will never use "shall" for any communication simply because it is not part of their vocabulary.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:51 am

Shall we walk, or shall we take the bus? = decision rests with the group.
We will be late if the traffic doesn't clear = outside their control.

I think that swapping shall and will here would make the sentences sound very strange. I recall Lewis saying that shall is more likely to be found with I and we because of the semantics of the modal.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:31 pm

Shall is not 100% dispensable, it comes in handy in the kind of situations some of you mentioned.
However, most of its usage is archaic, though not as archaic as its second person singular form shalt.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:56 am

Now, Metal, play nice. Your particular example fails to account for the differences in vernaculars. There are more English vernaculars spoken than there are English speaking countries. In my home town, the example you quoted is most generally rendered, "Ja-et-yet?" As we all know, spoken vernacular and written language are not the same thing at all, at all.

I don't think it's anything to do with vernaculars, or do British English vernaculars also use the past simple instead of the present perfect there?

Still, I do understand your reaction. I have the same reaction whenever I hear British friends talk about what they did "at" the weekend, or when they replace initial /th/ with /f/.

That's because British English speakers see the weekend as a point and Americans see it as a period. I can't see why Americans use the past simple here though:

Did you see the new movie at the moviehouse (yet)?
Hi. Did you eat yet?

Could you explain why you lot choose the past simple there?

In most American vernaculars, the use of "shall" is either fading or dead.

Yes, as I said, American English tends to conflate forms which could be usefully kept apart.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:08 am

metal56 wrote:I can't see why Americans use the past simple here though:

Did you see the new movie at the moviehouse (yet)?
Hi. Did you eat yet?

Could you explain why you lot choose the past simple there?

Maybe Americans just like to assume things more?

Friendlier and all that!

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:35 am

However, most of its usage is archaic,

Most? Really? Can you give examples of that?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:38 am

Maybe Americans just like to assume things more? Friendlier and all that!

How is making assumptions a more friendly act? And, what would be the assumption in "did you eat yet" or in "did you see the new movie yet"?