The death of "shall".

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Lotus
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Post by Lotus » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:00 pm

Now, Metal, play nice. Your particular example fails to account for the differences in vernaculars. There are more English vernaculars spoken than there are English speaking countries. In my home town, the example you quoted is most generally rendered, "Ja-et-yet?" As we all know, spoken vernacular and written language are not the same thing at all, at all.

I don't think it's anything to do with vernaculars, or do British English vernaculars also use the past simple instead of the present perfect there?
According to dictionary.com, one of the definitions of vernacular is: "the plain variety of language in everyday use by ordinary people". This is exactly what I mean by my remarks concerning vercacular, and yes, I believe it has a lot to do with why people speak as they do, be they British, American, Indian or what-have-you.
Still, I do understand your reaction. I have the same reaction whenever I hear British friends talk about what they did "at" the weekend, or when they replace initial /th/ with /f/.

That's because British English speakers see the weekend as a point and Americans see it as a period. I can't see why Americans use the past simple here though:

Did you see the new movie at the moviehouse (yet)?
Hi. Did you eat yet?

Could you explain why you lot choose the past simple there?
Okay, you obviously concede that choice of preposition is determined by one's perspective or concept. I submit that in your examples, the American concept of finished time is not the same as the British concept. Most Americans do not view eating or seeing a movie as an action that began in the past with results that continue into the present. Eating is an action. It was done a few hours ago. It's over. I ate. That's it. I will eat again, but I'll not continue eating any one meal indefinitely. So, simple past, in both questions and answers, "feels right". However, we will use the present perfect if we want to emphasize that we have already eaten, so please don't pester us about anther meal just yet, thank you.
In most American vernaculars, the use of "shall" is either fading or dead.

Yes, as I said, American English tends to conflate forms which could be usefully kept apart.
I disagree with your concept of confaltion. In these cases, the forms are not really conflated. One form is simply dropped in favor of another. It's called the evolution of a living language. I'm sorry if it offends you, but there's not really anything you or anyone else can do about it.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:07 pm

One form is simply dropped in favor of another. It's called the evolution of a living language. I'm sorry if it offends you, but there's not really anything you or anyone else can do about it.
One form is dropped over another that never really had the meaning of the one that was dropped? How odd. Sounds more like it was dropped because it was too difficult for AE speakers to cope with the difference - as with the the dropping of the past perfect over past simple , regardless of you above comments in defense of such an act.

More like devolution than evolution, IMO

Anyway, let's take a look at what you claim above:
Most Americans do not view eating or seeing a movie as an action that began in the past with results that continue into the present. Eating is an action.
So it's the particular verb/action which determines the choice between past simple and present perfect, is it?

Which other verbs lead AE speakers to choose the past simple where the Brits would choose the present perfect? Which other verbs are, contrarily, not seen as "an action that began in the past with results that continue into the present"?

Lotus
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Post by Lotus » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:43 pm

Metal, I get the distinct impression that you are arguing just for the sake of argument. I'm sorry, but I don't have time for this. If you are really serious about these queries, then I suggest you research the topic.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:46 pm

Lotus wrote:Metal, I get the distinct impression that you are arguing just for the sake of argument. I'm sorry, but I don't have time for this. If you are really serious about these queries, then I suggest you research the topic.
Does that mean that you cannot provide qualified answers to questions about you variant of English? I am researching the topic right here.

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Lorikeet
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Post by Lorikeet » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:58 pm

metal56 wrote: ...Sounds more like it was dropped because it was too difficult for AE speakers to cope with the difference - as with the the dropping of the past perfect over past simple ...More like devolution than evolution, IMO
Talk about having prescriptive views, holding ideas about the superiority of one dialect over another, and insulting speakers of other dialects than your own... I thought you were opposed to that, Metal.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:15 pm

Lorikeet wrote:
metal56 wrote: ...Sounds more like it was dropped because it was too difficult for AE speakers to cope with the difference - as with the the dropping of the past perfect over past simple ...More like devolution than evolution, IMO
Talk about having prescriptive views, holding ideas about the superiority of one dialect over another, and insulting speakers of other dialects than your own... I thought you were opposed to that, Metal.
I think my comments are wholly descriptive. BTW, Lori, why didn't you make similar protests about this post?
Sorry, Playmates, but I shan't bother my head about all this.

Lotus
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Post by Lotus » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:49 am

Metal ;Does that mean that you cannot provide qualified answers to questions about you variant of English? I am researching the topic right here.
No, Silly. It means I have better things to do with my time than provide you with an argument forum. As busy as I am, arguing with you doesn't even make it onto my list of priorities. This is partly my fault. I only signed into this thread to respond to the demise of shall, then allowed myself to be distracted by your tense rant. Consider me totally and irrevocably removed from this distraction as of now.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:00 am

It means I have better things to do with my time than provide you with an argument forum.
So you'd prefer this forum to be an agreement forum, would you?

jotham
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Post by jotham » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:46 am

Naw, I used to get upset or frustrated at some of the things Metal said, but after a while, I realized that most of it isn't really personal, just kind of reactive. And I've observed when Metal is silent, so is the chatroom, more or less. I think Metal gets the ball rolling and keeps the chats lively — he has an important role. Just choose the topics among the many he introduces that particularly interests you. :D
Last edited by jotham on Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:16 am

Naw, I used to get upset or frustrated at some of the things Metal said, but after a while, I realized that most of it isn't really personal, just kind of reactive.
Sounds like something many posters here would say about you, Jockham.
Just choose the topics among the many he introduces that particularly interests you.
Shouldn't that be "that interest you"?

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:19 pm

It's quite common for tenses to disappear. In France at one time the perfect was used in part of France and the past simple in another. The former version eventually triumphed and the past is now only seen in written French.

English, Catalan and Spanish all distinguish between the two tenses, but the distinctions are different in each case.

And of course pronouns change; the first person plural pronoun in spoken French is 'on', not 'nous'.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:54 pm

The former version eventually triumphed and the past is now only seen in written French.
"Triumphed" is an interesting word. Why is it you think that a loss of one form over another is always a triumph? Many, many NNES say that they want to stop learning the present perfect becuase it's too hard to use. Maybe quite a few AE speakers felt the same about "shall" and the appropriate use of the "present perfect". As users, we can be lazy at times.

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