How much time spent on ums and such?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:03 pm

"Looking at a piece of spoken interaction among a group of learners shows that they are largely capable of constructing sensible utterances but have no idea of how a conversation develops. The skills a speaker really needs include the ability to interrupt at the right moment and the knowledge of when to stay silent. Even more importantly, learners need to know how to stay silent and keep the other person talking. They also need to be able to use such important ‘words’ as um, er, yeah, and well. It is such things as these that we should be testing when we test listening and speaking skills because they are entirely characteristic of fluent speakers."

Michael Hoey

How much time do you spend, or how much attention do you give, in class to teaching/learning how to stay silent and when and how to interrupt? Do you teach "um, er, yeah," and so on?

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:47 pm

Yes, and the Canadian "eh". But I do it without thinking and not intentionally at all. At the end of six months the students are using these sounds though and not their own pauses. In Japan it is "eto" as I remember. If they use their own sounds to "think" or pause about what they are going to say next I often provide a Canadian sound but I must admit I have never thought about it until you brought it up. It is really important. The Danish censor remarked on my student's Canadianisms when he conducted my oral exams in English but didn't take any marks off. In France my sons got marks off for using North American sounds and not British ones because their school only studied British English. The students in their classes ended up using North American sounds and words by the end of the year though by being friends with my sons after school.

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:28 pm

I have been thinking about Hoey's comment on testing these sounds, pauses and silences. If it is formative assessment then it would be useful but I don't think that putting them in a TOEFL test or test to move to another level would be fair or necessary. It goes back to that extensive discussion on getting to native speaker level.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:04 pm

If it is formative assessment then it would be useful but I don't think that putting them in a TOEFL test or test to move to another level would be fair or necessary.

I agree.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:12 am

Don't students follow the same patterns in their own language? Is there any need to teach it?

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:56 pm

No, there are definite cultural differences. The Somalis I taught talked all at once until the one with the golden voice won out and became the leader of the group. Greenlanders never do things together and never listen to a "lecture" because most of the information is not relevant to them. You have to teach them individually and say only what is important to them. The French shrug their shoulders and say "pffff" when think something is silly. I never do that in Canada. I never bow to my elders in Canada like I did in Japan or put my hands and arms on top of someone elses hands and arms my junior like I did in Mongolia or pause and shake someone's hand to give them back their Karma if I stepped on their feet and on and on.

So I think we do teach it but by example and without putting it down in the lesson plan. Anything that is left to just picking it up will probably guarantee that some students won't pick it up, so perhaps we should be more aware of these things and point them out to the students who don't seem to be getting them which means we have to be aware of them ourselves.

Just a personal example, to show that is important. My cousin married a Danish woman and my Mom thought she was arrogant and hauty because she never said "Please". When my Mom finally told her, my Danish cousin adapted her speach to please my Mom and my Mom found her charming and warm and now they are great friends. It didn't seem to work the other way when my Danish cousin explained that they didn't say please but I suppose that might be just an age thing as my Mom is older.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:59 am

Don't students follow the same patterns in their own language?

It surprises me that you should assume all languages follow the same pattern. Just watch a Spanish chat show. If it has more than two partcipants, they normally all speak/shout at the same time or over each other. Many students attempt to transfer that behaviour to converations in British English. Now, that may be OK if your target is not to have coversations with Brits, otherwise...

Odd that students here in the Basque often don't say a word or react in any way when a class member is speaking to them. The uhms, ahs and such need teaching. In fact, they need testing.

John Hall · Post by **John Hall** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:40 pm

What a Spanish speaker says when spelling her name:

"My name is Lourdes. L ... O ... ehhh ... U ... ehhhh ... R ... D ... ehhh ... E ... S"

What a native English speaker hears that Spanish speaker saying:

"My name is Lourdes. L ... O ... A ... U ... A ... R ... D ... A ... E ... S."

Lotus · Post by **Lotus** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:01 am

Interesting mini phonics lesson, John. I wonder if the Spanish vowels Metal hears in Spain are the same as the Spanish vowels you hear in Costa Rica? Or has their vowel chart undergone the same sort of changes as the English one has from one side of the world to the other?

Lotus · Post by **Lotus** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:08 am

metal56 wrote:
If it is formative assessment then it would be useful but I don't think that putting them in a TOEFL test or test to move to another level would be fair or necessary.
I agree.

Odd that students here in the Basque often don't say a word or react in any way when a class member is speaking to them. The uhms, ahs and such need teaching. In fact, they need testing.

Metal, have you changed your mind? Which side of this fence are you on?

Or are you saying, by all means teach and test them, but don't require them for passing a certain level? In which case, how do you propose testing?

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:17 pm

First we have to find out what we are doing. We need to examine video taped conversations among native speakers more closely. There are studies done for improving your communications - take on the same position of the body as the person you are trying to impress. Lean forward. Show interest by using umm, huh and so on but doesn't examine which of the sounds we use, when these are most effective and how they are used. But don't we have to include gestures, body positions and facial expressions as well as these are all important?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:27 am

Lotus wrote:
Metal, have you changed your mind? Which side of this fence are you on? Or are you saying, by all means teach and test them, but don't require them for passing a certain level? In which case, how do you propose testing?

I said that I didn't agree with testing such in a TOEFL exam.

In which case, how do you propose testing?

Not sure. Not in the way it is done in the TSE or SPEAK tests, even though those tests may be a step in the right direction.

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:13 pm

I was thinking about this and wondering how we can teach it and then test it when we are so bad at it ourselves. I mean native speaking English people always have misunderstandings because they don't do the right sound at the right time. Think of the husband and wife problems over "umm" said with the wrong intonation. Some NS' take courses to improve their abilities to communicate but I bet not many ESL teachers have taken one. By defiinition, I would think that they would be good communicators if they are good teachers but everyone has problems at one time or another with a misspoken "huh" or "yeh".

There is a lot of work going on in Systemic Functional Analysis on this type of thing but we are a long way from knowing what NS' do. I don't think there is any research on whether we do it differently in different countries or cities or families but common sense would say yes.

At present, students learn through imitation and if we give the best example we can and as my professor used to say, "stand outside on the balcony and watch yourself", we could add to this knowledge.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:35 pm

I mean native speaking English people always have misunderstandings because they don't do the right sound at the right time.

Know what you mean. Each time my wife puts on a new dress she asks if I like it. I always seem to make the wrong sound.

But, realise that we also realise that we don't always make the "right" sound and that we can talk about/describe such "slips". Many of us, teachers alike, know about such slips. So, we can also "teach" the slips, or show that they happen.

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:02 pm

If you teach about the slips are you teaching English then or a communications course? Should we be doing both?