I'm just saying in a literate society, the spoken-like-written club rocks; it rules; it's the hottest thing going. That may be a matter of opinion — but no one can deny that its membership is substantial.People who immerse themselves in all kinds of groups, cliques, clubs, and text types often do end up speaking like the other members of the club. So what's new?
Adult native English speakers do not commit errors in usage
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Really? Do you have evidence of such dominance?the spoken-like-written club rocks; it rules; it's the hottest thing going.
Sounds more like a matter of wish fulfilment to me, Jotham. Almost all your posts are filled with the desire to make us all into "polished" writers. To me, you are the major prescritivist and number one anti-dialect person on this forum.That may be a matter of opinion —.
If you look around, you'll find that it is the colloquial, the informal, the conversational which dominates every day use.
The number of people who can do both. I don't mean the people who speak like that twenty-four hours.metal56 wrote:Really? Do you have evidence of such dominance?the spoken-like-written club rocks; it rules; it's the hottest thing going.
Where did this come from? And how am I anti-dialect? I may not be as overzealous as you about dialects, but that hardly makes me anti-dialect. And why does everything have to be so black and white with you? I'm taking the middle ground: I said that there is room for spoken languages bearing both little and much resemblance to written structures. I don't see how that makes me anti-dialect. You seem to persist that there is only one way — all or nothing. If anyone is anti anything, you seem to be anti-standard English and anti-excellence in writing, and then taking a cheap shot by tying it all to racism and being hyperwhite — and nerdy to boot. More on that later.Almost all your posts are filled with the desire to make us all into "polished" writers. To me, you are the major prescritivist and number one anti-dialect person on this forum.
Give me one instance of me disagreeing with this. I have not once disagreed that spoken language bears little resemblance to written structures, which your point above clearly illustrates. But do you deny that spoken language bears much resemblance to written structures? Is there no nuance with you? I see professional communication, and ratiocination in particular, all the time in our society. All I'm saying is that I see it less often in a less literate society even to the point of being rare, or absent in some societies. I never said that dialect or unwritten structures are rare or absent in a literate society — maybe less prominent than in a less literate society, but not unprominent. You're putting words in my mouth.If you look around, you'll find that it is the colloquial, the informal, the conversational which dominates every day use.
I doubt if anyone here really knows what you mean.The number of people who can do both. I don't mean the people who speak like that twenty-four hours.
LOL! Look back at most of your posts. You prefer your "polished" writers writers to ordinary folk. That obvious.If anyone is anti anything, you seem to be anti-standard English and anti-excellence in writing,
Do you feel the hyperwhite thread is referring to you? Are you getting paranoid?and then taking a cheap shot by tying it all to racism and being hyperwhite — and nerdy to boot
I deny no such thing. Here, you say:Give me one instance of me disagreeing with this. I have not once disagreed that spoken language bears little resemblance to written structures, which your point above clearly illustrates. But do you deny that spoken language bears much resemblance to written structures.
What do you mean by that?the spoken-like-written club rocks; it rules; it's the hottest thing going.
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Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 pm
You may have a point here. Often the lower- or middle-class strive to be correct to the point that some words or phrases are wrongly thought to be "more standard" and thus employed affectedly; and hypercorrection may be evident, like using the Latin plural fora instead of the English plural forums or employing the phrase, between you and I.Stephen Jones wrote:In informal situations it is the less-educated that approximate to the norms of written language more than the higly educated.
Emily Post came up with a list of terms that differ between the American upper class and the affected forms of some in the middle class who are, as Alan S.C. Ross says, "typical of social climbers who put on airs."
The upper class say flowers, while the non-upper class say corsage. The upper say curtains, and the non-upper say drapes; a beautiful house, an elegant home; good food, lovely food; big house, mansion; I would like to buy, I desire to purchase, etc. Perhaps pictograph versus Fluffy's personal favorite, morphosyllabogram, fits as well.
My source is Bryan Garner.
He says:
In the middle, according to Fussell, is the insecure middle class, whose language is often inflated and pretentious. At the top are the upper-middle and upper classes, whose language is typically relaxed and straightforward — a plain-spoken style.
The number of people who can easily switch back and forth between professional and casual conversation according to the appropriate situation and social maturity, which high-school nerds may not possess.metal56 wrote:I doubt if anyone here really knows what you mean.The number of people who can do both. I don't mean the people who speak like that twenty-four hours.
No, I don't think the hyperwhite thread — and definitely not the article — is referring to me. But you may be trying.Do you feel the hyperwhite thread is referring to you? Are you getting paranoid?and then taking a cheap shot by tying it all to racism and being hyperwhite — and nerdy to boot
The number of people who have the ability to employ professional conversation according to the appropriate situation and social maturity. I was attempting to use informal language to convey this statement about formal language in a contrasting, fun way — but the effect was obviously lost.What do you mean by that?the spoken-like-written club rocks; it rules; it's the hottest thing going.
You are getting paranoid.No, I don't think the hyperwhite thread — and definitely not the article — is referring to me. But you may be trying.
If by professional conversation, you mean that which is an extension of the register used one's profession, it is no surprise that such speakers will sound similar to when they write. But, mentioning professional minority does not show that in general, our daily conversation is influenced or affected by formal, what you term "polished" or literary English. You still have not proved your point on that.The number of people who have the ability to employ professional conversation according to the appropriate situation and social maturity.
Well, what do you mean "in general"? You probably mean leisure time; but what if you mean all the time? Most people work eight hours a day, during which they use professional communication, the amount of which varies profession to profession. That's probably more time than they spend gabbing with friends in their free time. And professional and casual conversations often bleeds into work or leisure times. At work, one engages in casual conversation with coworkers. At home, one regularly talks about specific work issues with a spouse (especially when both are working), friends, or even kids, and perhaps help them with their math, history, or science to boot. Speaking genres mix quite well on and off.metal56 wrote:But, mentioning professional minority does not show that in general, our daily conversation is influenced or affected by formal, what you term "polished" or literary English. You still have not proved your point on that.
The amount of time spent on professional dialogue depends on one's profession, of course. Few people are going to talk about their janitorial work in professional overtones. But in the U.S. and U.K., the proportion of upper-level careers and people entering them, being affected by them, and using professional communication because of them is greater than the proportion in a good many other countries. This is why I said the talk-like-written club is substantial, or "cool."