<b>Forum for the discussion of Applied Linguistics </b>
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fluffyhamster
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by fluffyhamster » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:11 pm
A friend was looking at their letter from the NHS the other day:
Should you be unable to keep this appointment, please contact us, so that another patient can be offered the appointment and an alternative appointment will be made for you.
They asked me if that 'will' seemed unnecessary, and wondered if there were some fancy term for this "remark-able" phenomenon. Of course, I was at a complete loss as to what to say and have no opinion on the matter at all. (I probably need an MA before I can start thinking straight - just alluding here to a recent new thread over on the Job General Disussion forum, where I've made the fatal mistake of more or less questioning not only the CELTA but Dips and MAs in general too

).
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jotham
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by jotham » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:55 pm
fluffyhamster wrote:A friend was looking at their letter from the NHS the other day:
Should you be unable to keep this appointment, please contact us, so that another patient can be offered the appointment and an alternative appointment will be made for you.
They asked me if that 'will' seemed unnecessary, and wondered if there were some fancy term for this "remark-able" phenomenon. Of course, I was at a complete loss as to what to say and have no opinion on the matter at all.
I think the
will is unnecessary. The progression goes "
so that another patient
can be offered the appointment and (so that) an alternative appointment (can) be made for you."
The original sentence works as well, but I'd add a strong (or stronger) break to clearly separate the phrases:
"...so that another patient can be offered the appointment
; and an alternative appointment will be made for you."
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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:35 pm
The will may not be necessary, but surely it affects the meaning quite drastically. Without it, the letter is saying "Let us know if you can't keep the appointment to enable us to offer the slot to someone else and give you a new one", with it the letter says "...enable us to offer the slot to someone else, and we undertake to give you a new one".
Stylistically, you could argue that it's a bit clumsy to have the two ideas in the same sentence, but it's clear enough to me.
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fluffyhamster
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by fluffyhamster » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:41 pm
Hi Jotham! I was also thinking of a break, but I'd go for just a comma rather than a semi-colon.
Salutations to you too, lolwhites! It seems strange to me that anyone would want to stress that getting a replacement appointment is indeed to be expected, a matter of course, and I rather suspect that it was not a conscious decision to include the 'will'. Things (as Jotham says) read better without the second modal (one could also delete the second 'be' too). I think the patient should only be concerned that NOT telling them to cancel might result in a replacement appointment not being immediately booked and forthcoming (but perhaps that is an implicit threat with the super-positive will).
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lolwhites
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by lolwhites » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:23 pm
I see the will as suggesting a promise on the part of a clinic, a kind of carrot to encourage patients to phone if they can't keep an appointment as opposed to simply not showing up.
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woodcutter
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by woodcutter » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:45 pm
I think Lol sorted this out pretty well, and probably did it without using too many of his formal-linguistics-qualification-man powers.
I had a little look for your post on the subject Fluff, but so many threads are about the possible merits of such qualifications it is hard to find. Anyway, it's a soft target, though you are likely to upset people who spent lots of money for letters after their name. That's what education is all about, old chap!
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fluffyhamster
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by fluffyhamster » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:28 am
Hi woody. Yeah, I like lol's take on it, if it's a conscious 'will' then a promise is probably a better way to cut it than a threat or whatever I was groping for. As for the MA "spat" thread (oops actually it's on the Newbie forum, and called 'Way to go, Dave!', a search for 'obsequious' should unearth it), it's settled down a bit now cos I realized I was perhaps sounding a bit of a twonker and thus "put a sock in it". I will however say here over on the relative safety of the Teacher forums that I wonder quite who first started insisting that teachers needed an MA (few are REAL research degrees) - probably the universities, in search of money, in exchange for which they'd let those who stumped up and qualified have a crack at teaching English Conversation 101 or Awful Listening Passages Comprehension 666 to some braindead non-native undergrads (at least that's what it often sounds like in Japan). Outside of universities (which don't strike me as being particularly enjoyable places to work, unless like I say you are doing actual cutting-edge research and publishing rather than teaching English in its "non-linguistic" sense) who really "needs" an MA? Maybe you do at some of the snootier schools, but you can bet that they're getting a bit above themselves. What I'd like to see is a proper pay scale and appraisal/professional development system introduced into "run-of-the-mill" schools, but then, most are run by people who reflect and develp even less than the strawman average teacher apparently does...but I suppose that at least leaving teachers to fend for themselves year in and out for a forever fixed salary does help to sort the real backpackers out from the not too hopeless cases. (All this is a plea that any teacher who's been teaching for a decade or more be accorded some actual respect, be asked probing questions in proper interviews, and be entrusted with some real responsibility and freedom once in whatever "new" job). Or maybe I really should just do that MA and hasten to the nearest job in HE.
Last edited by
fluffyhamster on Fri May 23, 2008 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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woodcutter
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by woodcutter » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:20 am
I read some of the thread. As someone said, we may know you've read more books about ESL than the average MA holder, but how will anyone else know? There are people with 10 years experience here in Korea who I suspect have never read any books about teaching at all.
Do you need an MA to teach the bog-standard uni class? Of course not. And in the confucian cultural world I feel most classes are designed by the locals with the expectation of your relative incompetence in mind. But an MA probably shows you are not a class A moron at least, and I don't think a CELTA does.
Anyway, even if it isn't your preferred way of creating more professionalism, it is one way, and you are one of the people who always say we need more of that, whereas I have always maintained that things like a booming voice, commonsense, sense of humour, willingness to toe the line, blonde wig etc are usually more important in this here enfotainment business.
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fluffyhamster
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by fluffyhamster » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:56 am
You can tell that somebody is clued up primarily by the sort of answers they give (or if they feel daring, the questions they ask, or the things they would expect and like to see in "the" job) in interviews, but I'll grant that not all employers have time to probe very deep and would prefer to trust in someone simply having an MA or whatever (not that this will mean the thinking and/or caring employee is or will end up on the same wavelength about everything). I am thinking mainly of teaching here, and well-qualified people often still have to do it (or if not, what is it exactly then that they're so qualified to do instead?! Dpends on the choices that were available and that they made on their MA really).
Anyway, I guess I'll just have to wait to hear what was so fab about certain MA courses (beyond the very vague 'I learnt so much', which doesn't tell me if the person hadn't read very much prior to the course, or if the course was demanding even for the relatively informed). The fact that you had some bad experiences on one course* (ironically the more expensive) before switching to another that sounded like "just the (bread)ticket" doesn't inspire me, I'm afraid (but then, I suppose that I must also say that I myself probably wouldn't've chosen those particular unis/courses, woody. Part of the battle is picking those divisions and fights that you think you can win (that is, those things that you definitely know will interest and motivate you)).
We seem to agree that the CELTA isn't much to shout about, but then, what really is other than the language we're teaching and the activities with which we make it become yet more vital and compelling.
*That was primarily what I was thinking of when I implied that some MAs can demand the obsequiousness, but I wouldn't've have needed to have heard about your specific experience to imagine little disagreements like that (and that is ultimately what they are, if only these tutors would get off elsewhere!) being a distinct possibility/potential hazard.
Last edited by
fluffyhamster on Fri May 23, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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woodcutter
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by woodcutter » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:03 am
The MA I took was mainly theoretical, and it hasn't proved very useful so far. All the same, I'm just saying it shows you are not one of the people who never learn and just get by in this job - and I think there are a lot.
Being obsequious certainly helps, some students really suck up. It would be going a bit far to say it is necessary. However applied linguistics is concerned with language and culture and educational fashion. Therefore, it is a very PC ridden field, there are all sorts of areas where it is dangerous to give certain opinions or voice doubts, and you have to be careful.
On the other hand I was served up the 1960's Kaplan stuff about Anglo-Saxon people having linear thought, continentals zig-zag thought and orientals circular thought, which seems pretty racist to me. That kind of thing makes it all the more difficult, there doesn't seem to be much consistency.
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Stephen Jones
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by Stephen Jones » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:17 am
On the other hand I was served up the 1960's Kaplan stuff about Anglo-Saxon people having linear thought, continentals zig-zag thought and orientals circular thought, which seems pretty racist to me. That kind of thing makes it all the more difficult, there doesn't seem to be much consistency.
Not so much racist as rubbish.
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Sally Olsen
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by Sally Olsen » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:25 pm
I had never thought about the diagrams being racist, just a visual representation of language. My visual students said that it helped them but I usually pictured English as hierarchical rather than linear. How would you present the differences in writing different languages in visual form? I also gave musical examples and some students found that helpful as well.
I don't understand the problem with getting an MA. You get what you put into education at any stage and my degree from Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada was great. How can you say all your learned? I can tell you what I got from the courses, from the friendships, from the contacts, from the extra-curricular activities, from people knowing I was going to university to get my Masters and talking to me about it, from the jobs I got as a result and on and on.
You can be home schooled or self-educated and if you can prove that you can do the job, people will give it to you but that takes a whole lot of time on both sides. What school administrator has time for that with all their other duties, especially from a distance?
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fluffyhamster
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by fluffyhamster » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:56 pm
Sally Olsen wrote:I don't understand the problem with getting an MA. You get what you put into education at any stage and my degree from Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada was great. How can you say all your learned? I can tell you what I got from the courses, from the friendships, from the contacts, from the extra-curricular activities, from people knowing I was going to university to get my Masters and talking to me about it, from the jobs I got as a result and on and on.
You can be home schooled or self-educated and if you can prove that you can do the job, people will give it to you but that takes a whole lot of time on both sides. What school administrator has time for that with all their other duties, especially from a distance?
Good points, Sally. I just think however (sorry if this sounds very conceited) that I know at least the broad brushstrokes of the various areas of AL, and certainly don't need anyone to tell me what my interests should be (e.g. I don't see the need for studying SLA in any great depth, but it seems a required module on most courses) - I mean, just look at the people who post here sometimes, asking what they should write their papers on (I'd suggest a pad on a clipboard or preferably a table, but I think even the obviousness of that would escape some of them). But sure, people with MAs are going to probably be better on average than those without, and I suppose if an employer is not particularly bothered about imposing particular approaches or methods then it can "save time" and make for quicker interviews at least. As for making contacts etc, I really don't know if I'd like to be on campus again (it sounds like your MA wasn't a distance one) - a lot would depend on the town, surrounding area etc (sounds like I'd want to be bunking off rather than studying, eh!), but doing it as if it was just another breadticket doesn't exactly appeal either. Oh, the decisions! (Actually, I'm probably not ever going to be serious about doing an MA, if you couldn't tell already. I'd probably "rather" quit TEFL first (i.e. I haven't felt like I've got to do/am being forced to do it yet, probably because I don't want, even though I could probably do with the extra pay it would bring...like I've said before, I like teaching and think I do an OK job of it)).
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woodcutter
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by woodcutter » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:50 pm
Well, since you possibly wouldn't learn that much you don't already know, that's a reasonable decision in your case. (and in terms of practical value for my present job, in a primary school, I've learnt more from this site than from the MA)
As to Kaplan, since I also think the ideas are basically untrue, it seems that the ideas would simply stem from racial stereotypes. I would like to see some examples in comparative rhetoric where these differences in logic are actually displayed, because I don't notice it when reading essays in other languages myself. There is a slight difference in writing styles across cultures, to some extent, and university level English academic prose is often very "writer responsible" as they term it, repeating simple points again and again in the intro, middle and conclusion, and taking a definite viewpoint. However, English writing isn't always like that, the OP doesn't write like that, certainly! I think there is enough variety in the writing style of any culture that specifically learning that kind of thing is a bit superflous.
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Sally Olsen
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by Sally Olsen » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:48 pm
There are many other subjects you can take for your MA, fluffy or you could get an MEd. I am not saying that it is necessary at all but just that I love studying and talking to people about my favourite subjects and the university is a great place to meet people of all ages similarly inclined. I started out my PhD in the Language and Literacy ED department at the University of British Columbia but am serious thinking of switching to Anthropology but with a Linguistic slant.
Whatever course I have taken I have learned a great deal from the other students and felt in a small way, that I contributed to their learning as well. I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn't have an even more profound effect on them.
We had a great discussion of Kaplan in our courses and I will try and find the notes. But my professor, Devon Woods, helped one Japanese student with her Master Thesis. She chose to write in English as she would have written in Japanese and said that it was a very different way of presenting the material. The outside examiner wouldn't accept the transcript as a finished product and suggested that she use it as the basis for her thesis to show the differences so that is what she did.
I guess I believe there are text types and some people do them better than others. I guess I think that you can teach people or learn yourself to do a particular text type by examining many samples and finding the patterns. Teaching my students text types and showing them the work of other students to critique for the patterns seemed to work in Mongolia.
We used Beverly Derewianka's book on text types.