subjunctive

[Macavity]

Hello boffins,

a very nice and keen student asked me today what the difference between a subjunctive sentence and a conditional sentence was. I told her not to be silly, that I'm only an English teacher - how should I know

So go on then, is there a difference between subjunctive and conditionals? I would be grateful if you explain it so that I can understand, bearing in mind I studied (?) humanities. Ta.

[ouyang]

The subjunctive mood can be used in conditionals, e.g.
"If I were a rich man, all day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a wealthy man."

It's also used in other dependent clauses,
"I insist that he leave immediately."

It's the form of the verb that makes a clause subjunctive. We don't say,
"I were a rich man" or "He leave immediately". The subjunctive mood is not identical with conditionals. We can also say "If he was a rich man, why did he live in that broken down house?"

[Macavity]

Cheers ouyang,

but what's the reason for using the subjunctive in your example? If it's not some sort of "unreal" meaning as in a conditional sentence, what purpose does it serve? What would you say is the difference between " I insist that he leaves immediately" and your example sentence?

Thanks.

[lolwhites]

As a Brit, I'd say the difference in ouyang's example is register, but I've met Americans who would insist on using the subjunctive here.

In other contexts, there may well be a difference in meaning:
I insist that my students are hardworking sounds like I'm defending them against charges of laziness. I insist that my students be hardworking means I require them to work hard.

[Macavity]

Thanks lolwhites,

I can see the difference in your examples, and I think many people would insert "should" in the second sentence: "I insist that my students should be hardworking".

Also I see the register angle you mention in ouyang's examples; but what I'm a little in the dark about is the question of why some Americans would insist on the subjunctive here. I know that Americans tend to use it more than Brits, but what would make it necessary in ouyang's sentence, other than register?

Thanks

[ouyang]

Verbals can also be used to replace subjunctive constructions, "I requested that he come." - "I requested him to come."

Macavity, are you suggesting that the subjunctive is only necessary in conditionals because modals like "should" can express a similar meaning?

As an American, I would say that the subjunctive mood can express a speaker's feelings more directly, which consequently conveys a stronger and more authoritative sentiment than a modal construction can.

It's my understanding that your sentence is formed incorrectly,
"I insist that he leaves immediately." I try to be aware of differences in British English so that I don't correct students for using speech that would be acceptable in England. I'm curious if other Brits would consider the following sentences to be acceptable English.

Tom suggested that Jerry stays over for the night.
Sam proposed that Tom telephones his accountant.
She recommended that he goes and sees a doctor.
The manager requested that everyone puts their requests in writing.

[Macavity]

Hello ouyang

"Macavity, are you suggesting that the subjunctive is only necessary in conditionals because modals like "should" can express a similar meaning?"

I'm not sure that the subjunctive is necessary at all in conditionals, though I accept that people do use it this way.


"It's my understanding that your sentence is formed incorrectly,"

Why?


"I'm curious if other Brits would consider the following sentences to be acceptable English.

Tom suggested that Jerry stays over for the night.
Sam proposed that Tom telephones his accountant.
She recommended that he goes and sees a doctor.
The manager requested that everyone puts their requests in writing."

But these aren't the same, are they? The tense backshift isn't there in my example. I think I would prefer all your examples to use the infinitive (is it the subjunctive here, too?) in the "that" clause, and would use it quite naturally myself. However, I'm still not able to say why.

Thanks.

[woodcutter]

"Unreal" and "conditional" are not quite the same - surely the basic answer to the pesky student question is that the subjunctive covers a number of unreal situations in a number of contexts, but not always with a condition attatched (as numerous examples here have already demonstrated).

[ouyang]

Macavity, if you don't think the subjunctive is necessary in conditionals, how would say the following sentence,
"If I were the boss, I would fire him."

A. If I am the boss,
B. If I was the boss,
C. If I could be the boss,

I should have worded my examples with the present tense,

Tom suggests that Jerry stays over for the night.
Sam proposes that Tom telephones his accountant.
She recommends that he goes and sees a doctor.
The manager requests that everyone puts their requests in writing."

We use the third person singular for these sort of examples because the the "s" suffix is not added in the subjunctive mood.

Tom suggests that Jerry stay over for the night.
Sam proposes that Tom telephone his accountant.
She recommends that he go and see a doctor.
The manager requests that everyone put their requests in writing."

These sentences are formed like reported speech in which a tense shift does occur, "Tom said that Jerry would stay over for the night". However, the verbs in the examples refer to more than acts of communication. These verbs express the subjects' desire for the action or state in the dependent clause to occur. The subjunctive mood of the verb in the dependent clause reflects the fact that these events haven't occurred.

You can avoid the subjunctive mood by using other verbs, e.g.

"Tom wants Jerry to stay over. "
"Tom thinks that Jerry should stay over."
but I don't think you would want to say,
"Tom suggests that Jerry to stay over."

If you have ever taught in China, you would know that students often have problems using the present simple tense. They want to say things like, "I go to Beijing" "She gives me a pen." "They watch a movie.", but we don't form sentences with dynamic verbs in that way, unless they are in the subjunctive mood.

"I recommend that they watch a movie." Otherwise, we would use a different tense or a time word that indicates a habitiual action, "They're watching a movie." or "They watch a movie every night." This is why the subjunctive is especially difficult for Chinese students. It's the normal way that they form declarative statements.

I remember that it is difficult for English speakers to use the subjunctive mood properly in some European languages, but I've forgotten why.

[lolwhites]

One problem in English is that the difference between present subjunctive and indicative only shows up in the 3rd person singular. So I insist that he works hard is me saying he's a good worker while I insist he work hard is me requiring him to work hard. But if you change he to they, an ambiguity emerges (which may or may not be clear in context) and the simplest way to resolve it is to use the modal should.

[Peregrine]

One problem in English is that the difference between present subjunctive and indicative only shows up in the 3rd person singular. So I insist that he works hard is me saying he's a good worker while I insist he work hard is me requiring him to work hard. But if you change he to they, an ambiguity emerges (which may or may not be clear in context) and the simplest way to resolve it is to use the modal should.

Afternoon all.

I find that that should can introduce anotehr ambiguity (though only a small one)

Every time you poo-poo the importance of effort in my classes,
I insist [to you] that my students should work hard.

[Macavity]

ouyang - in answer to your question, I could say " If I was the boss, I would fire him", which, as far as I can tell, doesn't use the subjunctive, does it?

[ouyang]

No, it's not the subjunctive, but I don't think you can avoid the subjunctive mood entirely. If you made the statement, "I wish she was here." and your students asked if they could say, "I wish she is here.", how would you explain your use of the past tense. You don't wish she was here yesterday. You are wishing that she was here now.

When my students ask me when to use "shall" instead of "will", I tell them never. It's really an unnecessary modal in American English. So, I sympathize with your point of view.

[Macavity]

ouyang - thanks for taking the trouble; all very helpful stuff. The thing is I find that I generally have less trouble teaching conditionals and wishes, etc., when I avoid the subjunctive. It is a similar example, given by a colleague, which led to the questions about subjunctive sentences in the first place. Some of my students were confused by this example "If she were to come in right now...." and wanted to know why it wasnt "If she was to come in right now....", as the third person uses "is/was" and not "are/were". Then I fell a little into my own trap by mentioning the subjunctive, which I pointed out they could avoid here if they found it confusing. However, there's always one who wants to know more, and the student that I mentioned in my original post is, wait for it, a linguistics student at the local uni and is on this particular course as she has to give a presentation about corpora linguistics (?), in English, and needs to brush up a bit first.....my head hurts! As I say, I'm just an English teacher, no expert

[jotham]

There was an earlier thread that addressed these issues. The conditionals-versus-subjunctive topic was broached in the second page, (before abruptly changing course into a more hearty discussion over that and which, followed by Oxford commas...

http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=7480