What is the correct reflexive pronoun for someone?

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donnach
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What is the correct reflexive pronoun for someone?

Post by donnach » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:22 pm

The way someone carries oneself can determine....[I'm not feeling creative enough to make up the rest of the sentence.]

Is this correct? If not, what reflexive pronoun should be used? Themselves and theirselves are plural and someone is singular; themself and theirself are non-standard, and oneself sounds strange to me. Anyone know?

Thank you,

Donna

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Lorikeet
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Post by Lorikeet » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:02 pm

"The way someone carries him or herself" is a little cumbersome, but correct. I think it used to be "the way someone carries himself" but it's no longer politically correct, even if it is grammatically correct. "The way one carries oneself" would also work.

donnach
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Post by donnach » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:53 pm

Thank you for your help. Is there some particular reason that oneself cannot be used for someone?

Donna

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:55 pm

http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=4876f

Nearly four million googles for themself!

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:41 pm

If you google "someone carries.........." then the sample isn't huge, but themselves is way ahead, then themself, then individual genders, then both genders together. No oneself.

I also prefer themselves, though it may not be especially logical.

donnach
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Post by donnach » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:25 am

Ok, so google says what it says (descriptive grammar and all that good stuff), but is there a rule (I like rules) that says the pronoun "someone" takes reflexive pronouns "himself" or "herself", but NOT "oneself"? Or, the indefinite pronoun "one" takes the reflexive pronoun "oneself", but "oneself" does not apply to any other indefinite pronouns (such as "someone").

Thanks,

Donna

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:25 am

O hits = forbidden by rule, basically. If you want "rules" then please sign woodcutter's petition to create a sane rule pronouncing body, and prevent these "rules" being promulgated by Bill Bryson or John Humphries or long dead windbags.

It sounds very odd to say "someone carries oneself", because I think "someone" is more exclusive of self than "one", and also because of a leap in formality.

Macavity
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Post by Macavity » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:33 am

I think themselves (also themself) works very well. I also teach they/them as a possibility for the pronoun here simply because it is neutral and does away with the he/she (him/her) nonsense.

donnach
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Post by donnach » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:24 pm

Macavity wrote:I think themselves (also themself) works very well. I also teach they/them as a possibility for the pronoun here simply because it is neutral and does away with the he/she (him/her) nonsense.
Thanks Macavity for your opinion. I have reservations about using themself since it is listed in the dictionary as non-standard, or, actually my reservations are more the result of my being promptly and not-so-kindly corrected when I used it in informal writing. Of course, I came directly here and posted my question on this board to get some insight and understanding on the matter.
So then, is it your opinion that the non-standard themself acceptable in most situations? And, isn't themselves plural and someone singular?

Thanks,

Donna

Macavity
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Post by Macavity » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:29 pm

Hi Donna,

Well, I don't really consider non-standard and incorrect to mean the same thing. If I feel a form is acceptable and am comfortable with it, then I'm happy to teach it. Oxford, Cambridge, Websters, et al, don't own the rights, do they?

"The police confirmed that someone was seen leaving the premises in the early hours of the morning but that their identity was as yet unknown".

Naff example perhaps but you see where I'm coming from. Their identity is neutral/non-committal here and not necessarily plural.
Last edited by Macavity on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Macavity
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Post by Macavity » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:33 pm

Oh, I almost forgot....


Teacher: "Well, someone did it. The room didn't trash itself, did it! How many of you were involved?".

No reflection on the type of schools I teach at, BTW.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:16 am

'himself', 'themselves', 'themself' are all correct. My preference is in that order.

donnach
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Post by donnach » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:55 pm

Macavity wrote: "The police confirmed that someone was seen leaving the premises in the early hours of the morning but that their identity was as yet unknown".

Naff example perhaps but you see where I'm coming from. Their identity is neutral/non-committal here and not necessarily plural.
Ah, now I see how a pronoun that is singular uses a reflexive pronoun that is plural. Thank you.

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