Highly Selected Examples

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shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:54 pm

Lorikeet,
Then I suggest you make your actual points and explain your new system, so it will be clearer for us. Otherwise we will all argue without being able to see your presentation.
I am afraid I decide my own timing. I do not live on discussions. I have to work.

It is now Hong Kong time 1:10 a.m. and I am still doing some paper works for my company tomorrow.

Good night.
==============
Otherwise we will all argue without being able to see your presentation.
Oh, this I really don't know. I am a new bird flying into internet, so I don't know about this. :wink:

shuntang
Posts: 327
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NATIVE SPEAKERS' INTUITION

Post by shuntang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:10 pm

NATIVE SPEAKERS' INTUITION

Lorikeet,

Since you want me to rely on native speakers' intuition about Present Perfect, I have to agree.

Present Perfect is famous for its dual function, expressing either a finish or a continuity:
ExA: He has worked here in the past. (= A finish)
ExB: He has worked here since January. (= A continuity)

The meanings of the structures are well known and accepted by everyone. I want to know how shall English native speakers tell the difference? At what situation shall Present Perfect stand for a finish? At what situation a continuity?

Shun

Duncan Powrie
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Post by Duncan Powrie » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:39 am

shuntang wrote:I wouldn't say that USED TO cannot express past habit, but to express past habit, we don't necessarily use USED TO. Shun Tang
Grr... :evil: ...I realize past habits (routines?) can be expressed without using "used to" (i.e. we could simply use Simple Past), I just meant to imply that under "used to" is probably where one would find at least some information about past habits/routines in most grammars.

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:24 pm

You are 100% correct.

Shun

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:45 am

Hi Shun,

Perhaps it may help to recognize that Present Simple and Past Simple are tenses, while the other commonly used verb forms are best described as aspects. What's the difference, you ask? The difference is exactly what confuses many observers.

Aspects do reveal the users interpretation of time associated with the verb. But tenses are not about time. As intuitive as it may seem so, Present Tense is not about present time. In fact it is not about time at all. Take your examples from another thread:

Birds sing.
The earth revolves around the sun.

Stop to think carefully about the meanings of these sentences. There is nothing there about time, is there? You could hardly describe the second sentence as meaning "it is the present habit of the earth to revolve around the sun", right? You asked for an explanation of the meaning of the Simple Present Tense structure. Here is mine. It works well for me, but as Duncan has properly pointed out, not everyone will always be comfortable with a definition.

Present Simple Tense is selected when the user wants to assert a fact that he believes to be true, and when he wishes specifically to imply that no additional interpretation be applied.

In other words, if I want to tell you something I think is true, I use Present Simple Tense. (If I want to interpret time along with my "truth", I use an aspect--Present Perfect, Present Continuous, etc.). Should I want you to understand that my "truth" is remote (as it would be if it were a 'fact' true in past time, for example) then I would select Past Simple Tense. Note, however, that my selection of Past Simple is not fundamentally about time, but about remoteness. Remoteness may involve remote time, but may also be about something else, as for example remote possibility, remote likelihood, a remote relationship between the speaker and the listener, etc. (Think about sentences like: "Excuse me, what was your name?", or "Did you want to see me, boss?", or "Would you mind if I smoked?"). So my selection of Past Simple Tense can be defined thus:

Past Simple Tense is selected when the user wants to assert a fact that he believes to be true, and when he wishes specifically to imply that this fact is remote in some meaningful way (to be determined by context).

Do these definitions work for you? Try them on all examples of the use of Present Simple and Past Simple Tense. Try it on the newspaper report examples. I believe this idea can explain every use of the form. What do you think?
:)
Larry Latham

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:41 am

Larry,
You wrote:Present Tense is not about present time. In fact it is not about time at all.... But tenses are not about time.
Please allow me to adopt some common Simple Present examples.
Ex4: The 30 new candidates come from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul’s conservative bent.
== Today, I cannot use Simple Present to say it anymore. The gathering is now over. If today I have to refer to the case, I have to indicate it is past, in Simple Past:
Ex4b: The 30 new candidates came from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul’s conservative bent.
== Now, if you agree that Ex4b is past, then I must say Ex4 is present. So, how can we say that "tenses are not about time"?

I hope you can see now, just because in Simple Past we know it is about past time:
Ex: He worked in that company.
we know in Simple Present it is about present time:
Ex: He works in that company.
Therefore, we have to admit, tenses are about time.
=============
You wrote: Perhaps it may help to recognize that Present Simple and Past Simple are tenses, while the other commonly used verb forms are best described as aspects......
Aspects do reveal the users interpretation of time associated with the verb. But tenses are not about time. As intuitive as it may seem so, Present Tense is not about present time. In fact it is not about time at all. Take your examples from another thread:
Birds sing.
The earth revolves around the sun.
While I have made it clear grammar books deliberately find these never-ending actions to protect their definitions about Simple Present, you pick them up once again, to support yourself. As they have no end -- thus no past, you can't see the contrast between present and past. Therefore, you conclude, you can't see the time. However, I hope you can review some comments from readers here, they also don't agree we choose only never-ending actions. Tenses are about time, as we have proven above.

Aspect theory is not news at all to me, as I have discussed tenses for decades. The theory is nearly perfect. But there is only one problem I have pointed out and all Aspect tycoons didn't know how to explain. As for the examples you have chosen, when we deliberately talk about the time, we use Present Perfect:
Ex: Birds have sung ever since dinosaurs have evolved into birds.
Ex: The earth has revolved around the sun for a long long time.

As you see, Aspect theory regards Aspect is not tense, thus not telling the time. However, here, when we deliberately talk about time, we finally have to use Present Perfect -- so-called Aspect. This is the trouble.

Perhaps it is difficult for some readers to understand. Let me repeat the whole thing: Aspect theory says Present Perfect is Aspect, not tense that is used to tell time (see the quote above). However, sometimes when we tell the time, we have to use Present Perfect. This has puzzled many Aspect experts I have visited. I repeatedly asked one simple question: "I have lived here since 1988", in Present Perfect, is it a tense or an Aspect? It is because we mention the time "since 1988" that we use Present Perfect, so how can we say Present Perfect doesn't relate time? But if we admit Present Perfect relates time, thus being a tense, how can we call it Aspect?
=============
You wrote:Present Simple Tense is selected when the user wants to assert a fact that he believes to be true, and when he wishes specifically to imply that no additional interpretation be applied.

Past Simple Tense is selected when the user wants to assert a fact that he believes to be true, and when he wishes specifically to imply that this fact is remote in some meaningful way (to be determined by context).
Let's review the examples you have chosen:
Birds sing.
The earth revolves around the sun.
May I ask, they are fact or not? Yes, they are facts. And then we may further ask, they are remote enough? Oh, these facts are very remote -- unless you can prove it isn't. According to your statements, they should have been in Simple Past. But why shall they still be in Simple Present?

=============
About remoteness, you wrote:...(to be determined by context).
I have answered some similar remarks carrying this hint: I too often use "the whole context" as a tool for discussion, so that I don't need to do any reasoning nor give any examples. Most important, it handles anything and I am always right at large. I would say like this, "I know my rule is not good enough, but if you look at the whole context you will see using tenses is a piece of cake, and we don't even need any rule at all." What I mean is, unless we make an example of context for illustration, "by the whole context" is an empty excuse.

Shun Tang

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:55 am

Hello again, Shun.
Please allow me to adopt some common Simple Present examples.
Ex4: The 30 new candidates come from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul’s conservative bent.
== Today, I cannot use Simple Present to say it anymore. The gathering is now over. If today I have to refer to the case, I have to indicate it is past, in Simple Past:
Ex4b: The 30 new candidates came from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul’s conservative bent.
== Now, if you agree that Ex4b is past, then I must say Ex4 is present. So, how can we say that "tenses are not about time"?
I'm afraid you have missed the most obvious point here. If the report says, "The 30 new candidates come from around the world...", it is, I hope you can see, apparently stating a fact without regard to time at all. The point that a speaker (or writer) would not make the same statement today using the same tense marker merely emphasizes what I suggested in my post above: If Past Simple Tense is selected, the user wishes to state a fact, and mark it for remoteness...in this particular case, where the user may be calling attention to an event that took place in past time, remoteness of time. Your example is selected to show that. Remember, I clearly said that remoteness may involve remoteness of time, but that is not the only kind of remoteness that is available to the chooser of Past Simple Tense. Your example does not refute my argument at all, I'm afraid; it only serves to illustrate it once more.
I hope you now can see, just because in Simple Past we know it is about past time:
Ex: He worked in that company.
we know in Simple Present it is about present time:
Ex: He works in that company.
Therefore, we have to admit, tenses are about time.
Here again, Shun, "He works in that company" is presented as a fact, without marking for further interpretation--for time or anything else. The Past Simple Tense example is marked for remoteness. In all likelihood, this remoteness is again probably about time, although without a context for this sentence, it is impossible to say for sure, even though I cannot imagine, at the moment, another likely interpretation for it. That this sentence is probably marked for remote time, however, does not prove that tenses are about time. It only shows that this particular sentence is about time, and remember again, I said remoteness may be about time.
As you see, Aspect theory regards Aspect is not tense, thus not telling the time.
Once again, I believe you have it backwards. Aspect is exactly the device used in verb constructs to interpret the temporal elements of the action or state.
However, here, when we deliberately talk about time, we finally have to use Present Perfect -- so-called Aspect. This is the trouble.
What is the trouble? Present Perfect Aspect is intended for use to talk about time.
However, sometimes when we tell the time, we have to use Present Perfect. This has puzzled many Aspect experts I have visited. I repeatedly asked one simple question: "I have lived here since 1988", in Present Perfect, is it a tense or an Aspect? It is because we mention the time "since 1988" that we use Present Perfect, so how can we say Present Perfect doesn't relate time?
Perhaps you made a typing error here, but it looks like you are quite confused. Present Perfect, as well as other aspect forms, are used for interpreting time. "I have lived here..." is most definitely an interpretation of time. You can end the sentence any way you want: "...since 1988" is one way, but you also could end it, "...twice before", or "..., but I don't anymore", or any number of ways. The endings may provide context in which to interpret the exact meaning of the sentence as a whole, but the verb construct itself remains a temporal interpretation. Since it is a present perfect form, as indicated by the present form of (have), the interpretation is something like: Looking back from this moment (which is to say, the moment I am speaking or writing), there is a period of time during which I live here. The final analysis comes from the context of the ending. If the ending is "...since 1988", then the period of time in question begins in 1988 and extends up until the moment of speaking. If the ending is "...twice before", then there are two apparently separate periods of time of unspecified duration, both of which have occured in their entirety before the moment of speaking. The point is that the speaker is interpreting time with his use of Present Perfect Aspect, just as we 'aspect lovers' have suggested. The form is not a tense because the verb does not inflect. If you say "have lived", it is present perfect. If you say "had lived", the verb, lived, does not change. Only the auxiliary does, and it changes to identify the particular point in time from which the speaker looks back in time.
Let's review the examples you have chosen:
Birds sing.
The earth revolves around the sun.
May I ask, they are fact or not? Yes, they are facts. And then we may further ask, they are remote enough? Oh, these facts are very remote -- unless you can prove it isn't. According to your statements, they should have been in Simple Past. But why shall they still be in Simple Present?
Now I am confused by your statements here, Shun. I'm afraid I can't find anywhere where I have made statements to the effect that these examples should have been in Simple Past, as you claim. Can you show me?

Larry Latham

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:43 am

Larry,

Please define remote.

Shun

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:15 am

Larry,
You wrote:"I have lived here..." is most definitely an interpretation of time. You can end the sentence any way you want: "...since 1988" is one way, but you also could end it, "...twice before", or "..., but I don't anymore", or any number of ways.
I don't think so. I cannot end it with YESTERDAY, LAST YEAR/MONTH/WEEK, IN 1998/2000/etc.
Ex: *I have lived here YESTERDAY, LAST YEAR/MONTH/WEEK, IN 1998/2000/etc.
Would you please explain why?

Shun

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:40 am

Larry,
You wrote:"He works in that company" is presented as a fact, without marking for further interpretation--for time or anything else. The Past Simple Tense example is marked for remoteness.
I don't know what is remoteness here. I hope from some contrasts I understand more about it.
1. As for "He works in that company", usually, if we use Simple Past, we mean he doesn't work there now. However, it seems to me that you use Simple Past NOT to imply he doesn't work there now, but only remoteness. Am I correct?
2. The remoteness theory permits that we use "He worked in that company", in Simple Past, to indicate he still works there now. Am I correct? After all, you told us that Present Tense is not about present time.

Shun

Duncan Powrie
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Post by Duncan Powrie » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:30 am

Yeyyy, it's Uncle Larry!! Good to see you again! Welcome back! Hey guys, where's the red carpet?!

Seriously, though, what would we do without you? Not only are your postings so very succinct and KNOWLEDGEABLE, but you reason so, well, reasonably with people!

Anyway, Shun wrote:
Please allow me to adopt some common Simple Present examples.
Ex4: The 30 new candidates come from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul&#8217;s conservative bent.
== Today, I cannot use Simple Present to say it anymore. The gathering is now over. If today I have to refer to the case, I have to indicate it is past, in Simple Past:
Ex4b: The 30 new candidates came from around the world, from Australia to Zagreb, Vietnam to Venice, and on the whole follow John Paul&#8217;s conservative bent.
== Now, if you agree that Ex4b is past, then I must say Ex4 is present. So, how can we say that "tenses are not about time"?
Uncle Larry replied thus:
I'm afraid you have missed the most obvious point here. If the report says, "The 30 new candidates come from around the world...", it is, I hope you can see, apparently stating a fact without regard to time at all. The point that a speaker (or writer) would not make the same statement today using the same tense marker merely emphasizes what I suggested in my post above: If Past Simple Tense is selected, the user wishes to state a fact, and mark it for remoteness...
Well said, Larry!

Whether we say "came" or still "come" today or tomorrow depends on if we are referring to the (newspaper's) report, or stepping back outside the report and into the "real world" again (i.e referring to the people who attended the gathering's nationalities, but now OUTSIDE the context of the gathering); in the former instance, we could say: "The people (who attended/went to the gathering) were/came from... OR "...COME from" (if the gathering is still taking place - no "automatic backshifting" in tenses, please!); and in the latter case, well you can fill that in for yourself! (NOTE ALSO: The people who attended the gathering before ARE... :wink: ).

In the former (report-dependant/based) case, a distinction also needs to be made between PRINTED TEXT and REFORMULATION BY SPEAKER. (I made a similar point in a previous post - that we are all smart enough to know what is truly "history", without it needing to be made explicit by tense changes (if that were possible with the masses of printed media!); that is, we can understand any Simple Present that we READ as actually being no longer true. Consequently, there is no reason - or rather, Shun's apparent "reason" is no reason - why examples using Present Simple of the type Shun has "identified" can't be included in grammars (even ones for foreign learners); indeed, such examples CAN be found in the larger and/or better grammars (admittedly, the bad ones still have a propensity for stating too-obvious facts)). Maybe Larry kind of made the same point above in just a few words ("The point that a speaker (or writer) would not make the same statement today using the same tense marker merely emphasizes what I suggested in my post above" :o ).

So, thanks, Larry, you helped give me the confidence to tackle the language aspects of this thread a bit more this time, rather than allude to Corpus Linguistics a bit too much as I did before, at the start of this thread (and do in general) - I think it must've been too much, anyway, because nobody responded to the less "linguistic" points I raised before! :wink: Anyway, I hope I haven't made any big boo-boos again!

By the way, I really MUST read Lewis's The English Verb again, and read it more closely this time around (as you have so obviously done)! I hope I will understand it more, anyway (a lot of stuff can pass us by if we are/were not "ready for/to appreciate it" i.e. I think I read it too early in my career). I might ask my folks to post it out to me...or try to pick up another copy somewhere here in Tokyo.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:59 pm

Hi Duncan,

Not everybody agrees with Lewis (as I have discovered, to my discouragement, here at this site), but I have found his analyses extremely cogent. He simply makes so much sense to me! Not that it's an easy read (The EV), rather, it is deceptively simple, I think. I'm not very smart, so I have read it eight times, would you believe, and have found new insight each time. I really cannot imagine the brilliance of the man. Happy reading.:)

Larry Latham

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:04 pm

Hello again, Shun.

A very good question, yours, asking me to define remote. Without a good idea of what that means, it may be impossible to imagine what I'm talking about. I should have done it originally, I guess. I sometimes take certain things for granted, when I shouldn't.

In fact, it is not easy to define. Remoteness is the feeling of relative far-ness that you get from certain pairs of English words. There is spacial remoteness that you get from comparison of the meanings of here and there, for example, or this one and that one, or these and those. One of the pair is farther away than the other. This sort of dichotomy of meanings is an extremely common and important element of English grammar, and cannot be emphasized too much by teachers. In addition to spacial remoteness, there can be several other remotenesses, equally as important in grammar. There is, of course, remoteness of time. Immediate time, is the time that is at or near the present moment, whereas remote time would be relatively far from now. There could be two kinds of remote time, I'm sure you will realize: time past and time in the future. Past Simple Tense, on those frequent occasions when it does indeed refer to remotness in time, is used only for time past, because Past Simple Tense also is used when the user wants to make factual statements, and facts which are remote in time can only be in past time. Events in future time could not be factual, since they have not yet occurred. Tenses (Present Simple and Past Simple) are specifically chosen when the user wishes to state what he believes to be fact. When other interpretations are desired, he intentionally chooses aspects to use in verb forms.

But there is more. Some of your friends are close, some others are less so. You know them, maybe even rather well, but you might not share your innermost thoughts with them. Another way to put that is to say that your relationship with some of your friends is more remote than with a certain special few close friends. So remoteness can refer to relationship as well as space and time. It is important in English grammar when you remember that your teachers told you something about "it is more polite to say X than to say Y". Now I ask, with whom are you polite? Is it with people you feel close to, or people with whom your relationship is more remote? Do you say "please" and "thank you" all the time when you talk to your mom and dad, or your wife, or your children? Or is it most likely to be with your boss, or with some of your colleagues at work (especially those you don't know very well)? Polite language, of any sort, is reserved for people with whom we have remote relationships. "Excuse me, what was your name?"

There can also be remoteness of possibility. Some events are more possible than others, in our points-of-view. This too, has its impact in English grammar. It allows sentences such as, for example, "I can't come today but I could tomorrow." Could, here, is a remote form.

Now, let's look at some of the example sentences you have offered.

1. He works in that company.
2. He worked in that company.

You are correct when you say that sentence 2 implies that he doesn't work there now. But let's carefully consider the process by which we can get to that understanding. Sentence 1 merely states a fact--with no added interpretation desired. Sentence 2 is still a fact (in the user's eyes), but he wishes to convey that there is something remote about that fact--in this case, that it is remote in time. Remember that Past Simple verb forms are not fundamentally about time, but the remoteness they suggest can be about time. Where people often get confused is when they leap from the verb form to a meaning about time, without understanding that there is an important intermediate step involved.

By the way, your point about not being able to end, "I have lived here..." in any way you want is well-taken. I put that badly. Perhaps I should have said "...with any context appropriate phrase." Thank you for calling attention to my error.

I hope this helps somewhat, Shun. You are quite right to be confused over this issue, and you certainly are not the only one. But you are one of the few who have eloquently voiced your confusion and insisted on a straight answer. Even most native speakers will not know exactly how to deal with this, although they are not likely to make mistakes in usage. It is extremely challanging to a non-native speaker, though, and you should be commended for pursuing clarity here. You will have to think carefully about this for some time before it becomes totally unclouded in your mind, working through many examples as you come across them in reports, newspapers, native speech, books and whatever other English you encounter in your daily life. I would guess that you deal with English rather often, perhaps in your work, since you seem to have rather a good command of it. :)

Larry Latham

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:58 pm

Larry,
Now, let's look at some of the example sentences you have offered.
1. He works in that company.
2. He worked in that company.
You are correct when you say that sentence 2 implies that he doesn't work there now. But let's carefully consider the process by which we can get to that understanding. Sentence 1 merely states a fact--with no added interpretation desired. Sentence 2 is still a fact (in the user's eyes), but he wishes to convey that there is something remote about that fact--in this case, that it is remote in time. Remember that Past Simple verb forms are not fundamentally about time, but the remoteness they suggest can be about time. Where people often get confused is when they leap from the verb form to a meaning about time, without understanding that there is an important intermediate step involved.
Please notice the key words I have bolded.
Since two sentences are also facts, the only difference is a kind of desire in Sentence 1, or a wish in Sentence 2. This analysis is further corroborated by the remoteness they suggest -- only a suggestion.

May I ask, how can a desire or wish be the main difference between Simple Present and Simple Past? Please understand that, for example, a wish to be rich doesn't mean one is rich. Actually, one wishes to be rich just because he is not rich. For the same reason, a wish to convey a remoteness doesn't mean there is a remoteness. It seems to me that both the sentences say the same thing, a fact and lack of remoteness, now that both of them don't express time.
I admit remoteness theory is completely strange to me, so please give some more hints to tell the difference between the two sentences.

Shun

shuntang
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:06 pm

Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:13 pm

Larry,

You seemed to have found out that this is not good enough:
Present Perfect, as well as other aspect forms, are used for interpreting time. "I have lived here..." is most definitely an interpretation of time. You can end the sentence any way you want: "...since 1988" is one way, but you also could end it, "...twice before", or "..., but I don't anymore", or any number of ways.....
Therefore, you have improved the statement:
By the way, your point about not being able to end, "I have lived here..." in any way you want is well-taken. I put that badly. Perhaps I should have said "...with any context appropriate phrase."
I beg your pardon, but how possibly can YESTERDAY be ever appropriately added to Present Perfect? How? In what imaginable context can one link Definite Past Time like YESTERDAY to Present Perfect?
==========

I finally picked up some notes of the remoteness theory and put them together. Please correct me if I have made a wrong conclusion.

Simple Present and Simple Past don't express time. To express time, English uses only Present Perfect, plus some proper time adverbials. What a shame. This wonderful remoteness theory has killed all tenses. If we have only one structure, namely Present Perfect, to express time, we may say there is not tense to express time. Why? Time is comparative. Without present, there is no past and future. Without today, there is no yesterday nor tomorrow. These timepieces are not a fixed date. They comes from comparison. But if we only have Present Perfect to express time, it shall compare with what? It compares with nothing but itself!! Yes, I understand we may still state those timepieces clearly: since 1987, in 1987, last week, etc. But what an improvement the remoteness theory has achieved!!

If not remoteness theory, we may use Simple Past, Present Perfect, and Simple Present to make the comparison (of time). Now with the advanced theory, we don't have such comparison anymore. English now is a language that has no tense to express time. However, yes, we can still use time adverbials. Therefore, as I can tell, the one who invented remoteness theory must be an expert of time adverbials. I want to know, does the expert teach the Past Family (like "in the past xx years") at length?

Shun Tang

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