Ideas for Conversation with adults

[sita]

Hi Rania!

Thanks for your information it was very interesting and helpful!

They said the media is FULL of heavy topics and they just wish to relax after a hard day of work at 7:30 pm

I have an English Lit course and they also prefer to read Anne of Green Gables or The secret garden - they say the same.
We wish to enjoy English and relax and switch off from problems.
They would never want to read critical books!
Is it really a matter of culture?
I am Welsh.

Siân

[stephen]

For books to do discussion work you could consider,

"Discussions that work" by Penny Ur [OUP, I think]
"Discussion A-Z" by Adrian Wallwork [CUP] (there's an intermediate and an advanced book, both of which are made of units of photocopiable discussions worksheets and deal with some more serious topics. There are also tapes but I've never used them.)
"Conversation Gambits" by Eric Keller and Sylvia T. Warner [Language Teaching Publications] (which provides certain phrases to use for each activity)
"Keep Talking" by Friederike Klippel [CUP]

Comparing them:
Discussions A-Z is the most topic based and serious.
Conversation Gambits is more function based.
Discussions that Work and Keep Talking have a greater variety of discussion activities.

Hope this helps
Stephen

[sita]

Hi Stephen!

I will have a look at them.

Thank you!
Siân

[Ann]

Sian,
The book that Rania mentioned is the one I use. Apparently, my copy is still "lost."
And someone here asked if it was a cultural thing when students don't like to discuss politics or religion in class. Without over-generalizing, it would be safe to say that American classrooms do involve a healthy discussion of such topics. But then again, it depends entirely on the content of the class and the nature of the discussion, and of course, the teacher.
In graduate classes, these sort of discussions are the norm. I just got back from class yesterday and participated in a healthy and lively discussion about homosexuality. The key is to remember that it is a DISCUSSION and if you cannot convince the other person of your truth, then its not the end of the world.
I encourage these discussions in my own classes because I think these not-so-black and white issues do come up in business situations (socializing, probably) and it is wise to know how to handle one's self with dignity. I consider this as a negotiation skill too.

[Rania]

Hello Sian and Ann – and others following this debate,

I’m Irish but I’ve been in Germany for a while. Yes, I think it is a cultural thing. People from certain cultures have no problems expressing an opinion and defending it to the best of their ability, they actually enjoy a heated debate and don’t necessarily take what is said personally. Other cultures believe that certain topics or beliefs are private and personal and not necessarily for debate in the public arena, e.g. in a conversation course, where oral fluency is actually the goal, not to ‘convince other people of your truth’ (sorry, Ann!) And that’s basically it, I guess – I have found that my students’ attitude is a mixture of ‘why should I have to convert this complete stranger to my way of thinking?’ and ‘I’ve had a long, hard day and I don’t know whether I could be bothered converting this complete stranger to my way of thinking when it’s none of his business anyway!’

That’s why I like to use a ‘neutral’ topic like the teachers debate, that allows a lot of discussion and opinions in a structured, non-threatening way, focusing on the opinions they have in common as well as their differing opinions – first in a smaller group, then the group unites to present its opinions to other groups. The subject can blossom; move on to more risky subjects, like e.g. comparing the values of various educational systems, why Germany did so badly in the PISA study etc. When the students get to know each other, and you, better, they can be quite forward with their opinions… but I think it takes a little longer with the Germans from the area I work in (note regional differences!) You have to respect the cultural distance.

[Roger]

Topic preferences:
Of course, this is a question about habits and customs! Call it grandiloquently "cultural" if you prefer though in my mind that is a little untrue.
Here in East Asia, I have taught students from Western backgrounds (Swedes, British, Canadian and overseas-Chinese), and on the other hand, I have taught local Chinese.

Westerners prefer a more "serious" topic - travelling, social, politics (to some extent), whereas Chinese display a marked interest in economics, and can easily be accommodated with personal issues like 'what's the ideal spouse like".
You can say this could also be used successfully in a Western classroom. Probably yes, although I would anticipate more resistance there than I actually encounter in China.
Chinese also have a knack for questions which we feel are too personal. How much money do you have/make? Are you interested in our girls? Why not?
A common denominafor Chinese interests might be: It must be to do with their idea of happiness - all that earns money, and how to enjoy life (that is, as a couple).
I can't say that I know a common denominator for Westerners - except that they have interests in more lofty realms!

[Rania]

Of course, this is a question about habits and customs! Call it grandiloquently "cultural" if you prefer though in my mind that is a little untrue.

I don't mean to bicker about the interpretation of words but to my mind, a “habit” is often a personal trait or activity one executes with routine frequency (“I smoke, I tap my fingernails when nervous”) and a “custom” is a tradition (“I put a Norwegian spruce in my living room every December and decorate it with tinsel.”) I believe the way students behave in (especially but not only) a conversation class is often connected with culture and not at all a “grandiloquent” proposition. On the contrary: teaching a class of Spaniards is very different from teaching a class of Germans, as any teacher in Europe will tell you, so I think it is an over-simplification on your part to talk sweepingly of ‘Westerners’. Even here in Germany there are regional differences – have you ever taught Franconians? Bavarians? Saxons? Berliners? If you have, you’ll know what I’m talking about.

And what about students that come from a culture where, for example, it is considered rude to contradict an older person or the teacher? Don’t you think a conversation class will, on the basis of this cultural aspect, be different from a conversation class with, for example, a group of students from a culture that encourages people of all ages to ‘speak up for themselves’? Or how about talking about women’s rights or feminism in a mixed sex class in a very traditional culture? What about students from a culture where it is considered impolite to say ‘no’ to strangers or to admit ignorance about a subject?

In my case, I come from a part of Germany where people are quite reserved. People of the older generation, especially, don’t talk to complete strangers about personal stuff and a teacher must be aware of this when planning a conversation class. My colleagues and I start with the ‘soft’ topics and give students the opportunity to get to know one another, before asking them to bare their soul on a variety of personal views. I have, however, taught in other parts of Germany and Europe and have learned to adapt my approach according to the group itself, as well as the cultural background that in some way always influences it.

As a teacher, one is always aware of his/her students, the chemistry between individuals, the group dynamic. Part of this awareness should be the cultural context, what might be considered offensive or taboo, what topics are suitable when and where. I personally don’t believe that a conversation class is a forum for teachers to impose topics on students that they, the teachers, feel ‘should’ be discussed. If your class doesn’t want to talk about abortion because it offends people’s sensibilities or simply isn’t a topic that would be discussed with people you don’t know very well, then leave it. A group of people who know and trust each other will talk about almost anything, a sensitive teacher knows how to steer students on to more controversial topics in a non-threatening way.

Thank you for your insights in to the Chinese culture. I’ve taught a lot of Asian students but have had none in my conversation classes, so your remarks are very interesting!

[Roger]

Apologies to you, Rania, but I misled myself into assuming that somehow it was about Asian students' interests. I am still a little inexperienced in using this forum!
What you said about "culture", "customs" and "habits" may very well be true for sociologues, but the dividing lines are rather fuzzy. Why I made this point in the first place was because too often, we accommodate customary or habitual whims of our students in the name of "respect for their culture". This is for example true as regards what we feel to be sensitive or taboo areas - our income levels, marital status, family life, religion, and so on. There was another thread about this in a different forum.

Unfortunately, I am not so familiar with Germans, so my advice was, I admit, highly unhelpful to you! Sorry for that, und im Uebrigen und verstehe ich auch deutsch!

[Rania]

Hi Roger,
This isn't exclusively about teaching Germans, though to be honest, the thread has become so long, I'm too pressed for time to read the previous threads to see what other topics it has covered.

I've read some of your other posts in other forums and you appear to be a pillion of sense, so I think we may possibly be talking past one another here. I think, personally, you should at least bear culture in mind, if not accommodate it, depending on who you teach and where. I have often encoutered a type of ... near-colonialising vigour from EFL teachers, a desire to bring certain topics into the classroom in the belief that people "SHOULD" talk about them. Sure, topics like homophobia, racism, abortion, women's rights et al make an interesting discussion, how well they are discussed depends on how you present them and if your students feel at ease discussing them in this setting and WANT to discuss them, at all. I have seen teachers enter the teachers' room in a huff because they had prepared a super class about, e.g. homosexuality, and their students more or less clammed up. Marching in to a room and announcing "Today we're going to talk about gay rights!" might be seen as the equivalent of throwing down the debating gauntlet to some and an affront to others. As a teacher, you should know your students well enough to know when what works and where!

And your comments about Asian students really were interesting to me - I have often thought about offering a course for the many Chinese who study in my town because their needs are often different from the Germans' - they have often good grammar (learned off by heart at uni?) but pronunciation that defeats me completely!

Also danke für die Antwort. Ich, im Vergleich zu vielen meiner deutschen Schuelern, geniesse eine lebendige Diskussion!
Gruss aus dem Frankenland,
Rania

[Rania]

A pillion of sense?
I'm obviously working too hard. A bastion, a pillar, perhaps ...
First rule of conversation class: don't use malapropisms, heh heh

[strider]

Hi Rania and Roger,

I've been following this discussion for a while - very interesting!

Just an observation though - surely this point about cultural sensitivites depends on who the learner is and why he or she is learning.

If the student is someone who just needs a few phrases for a tourist visit to London, for example, I agree that we as teachers should be careful not to be insensitive in the classroom.

However, for someone who is likely to stay in an English-speaking country for some time, for whatever reason, then discussions about controversial subjects would be a good preparation for his or her stay. In fact, if we as teachers try to be as accommodating as possible in the classroom, the students may be in for a big surprise when they arrive in the English-speaking country!

[Roger]

Rania, strider,

I think I can reconcile both your views. I am not the type of person who pushes a topic in any classroom, far from it, and certainly not hot issues such as politics or religion - a country like CHina teaches you to stay on the safe side.

There was a discussion earlier this year about sensitivity to our host country's students. Well, I would not be in China after so many years if I could not adapt. However, one can overdo the sensitivity thing. Some newcomers seem to be more politically-correct than our hosts themselves! I would never broach the issue of Tibet, yet when Chinese ask me where I come from I often reply in jest that I am a Tibetan. Believe it or not - one in ten actually believes me!

I do think that homophobia is a topic that we Westerners have recently learnt to address. We should not expect Muslims or other nationalities of conservative outlook to be as modern as we have become.Not that this is a particularly sensitive issue here in China - it is not! It just happens to be an issue that the Chinese society has not come to accept as a suitable topic yet, partly because so-called 'moral' issues like sexuality have been banned for decades owing to Western influence (by which I mean Marxism!). Note that the CHinese society used to be rather unchained (read "Dream of a Red Mansion", for example!). The last 60 years or so have been one long mind-straitjacketing effort - with people only talking about things that have officially been deemed "fit" for consumption.
And what's deemed not to be "fit" for consumption is "fopreign" in origin - hence the censorship. So, for an expat teacher to start a discussion on something that the mainland CHinese have never been officially been exposed to is a tad risque!

However, I do agree fully with you, strider, that CHinese intent on sojourning somewhere in the West BADLY NEED mental and intellectual preparation! First thing, they need to learn to be responsible for themselves, and not expect a nanny state taking care of their every whiand need, as they are used to. This means students need to understand the concept of hard work and ambition coupled with sacrifice and dedication. That's a lot that they have not learnt from their own society!
And, of course, they will need to respect our lifestyle in our society. They need to accept that not everybody will know that a CHinese hates to be confused with a Japanese. And, they will have to humour our opinions on things that their government untiringly keeps telling us are domestic business!

[Maltezer]

Last university year I was teaching oral classes of 30 Chinese students (now I only teach writing, I don't like just oral!) and I found the students enjoyed 'debate', particularly if they could prepare in advance.

I would select a topic such as 'Smoking is bad for your health', 'Tourism damages the environment', and then list groups of interested parties for each topic trying to get groups of 5 or 6, viz

the smoker, the non smoker, manager of a tobacco company, a doctor, a government official etc

and tell the students they had to prepare arguments for all the people involved as they would be put into groups the next week and they wouldn't know which role they were getting until class started. Sometimes I had different 'debates' going on at the same time.
Preparation meant they could consider the issues first and research vocab they thought would be relevant beforehand.

I would go round each group listening to each speaking and then have a round-up at the end. Sometimes (most of the time actually) it was difficult for students to play the part of someone whose views they didn't hold, but this does wonders for their ability to balance both sides of the argument.

The OUP book Conversation by R Nolasco and L Arthur is full of good ideas, though many of them require access to videos of native English TV progs which just isn't possible in China at any rate.

[Bonnie Trenga]

Hi, I'm the author of a new book called Off-the-Wall Skits with Phrasal Verbs (JAG Publications, www.jagpublications-esl.com). It is intermediate and above and is aimed at getting shy or reluctant students talking (grade 7 to adult education). Check out the publisher's Web site for a description/ordering information, or I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Hope the book will be fun for your class and will get them talking!

Bonnie Trenga ([email protected])

[Ann]

I agree with all of you to some extent, but I agree most with strider's comments. The idea of a conversation class has to begin with a needs-analysis.
I don't think I really want to talk about the axiological implications of the Iraq war in a Business English class, but I may have to talk about the economical repercussions of it.
Similarly, a class of college students (studying a myriad of subects) will be more attuned to debating on controversial subjects (even as foreign language students).
My basic skills ESL class may not want to debate the war, for example, but they may want to discuss some aspect of it ( a relation at war, or oil prices jumping up, etc.) that affects their lives.
My goal isn't to introduce controversial subjects into class but to ensure that they are allowed to continue if they come up and resolved or unresolved without bitterness.
Perhaps, Germans are reserved and don't expect to talk about politics or their personal beliefs in a public forum, and that's fine. But if their needs are to immigrate to an English-speaking country and live there and function as a citizen (not in the literal sense), they will get a good idea of life if they are educated through democratic discussions.
Rania, you point out that the point of conversation classes isn't to convert one to your own way of thinking but to achieve mastery over the language. But isn't that also a certain school of thought?
I won't apologize for my rationale behind topics of debate in classrooms because I have a background in rhetoric, so I cannot be convinced that any teacher or student comes into the classroom without expectations and without AGENDAS! Unfortunately, the term "agenda" has been misused and oversimplified.