Standard use of used to or not?

[Andrew Patterson]

Metal,

There are three verbs spelt use with three unrelated meanings. These verbs are generally considered to be different verbs rather than different forms of the same verb.

A Use followed by the object, "to" and the infinitive indicates the use to which the object is being put.
B Use in the past tense followed by "to" and the infinitive indicates that something was true in the past, but isn't any more.
C i) Be use to and ii) Get use to followed by the gerund mean respectively:
i) Be accustomed to and ii) Become accustomed to.

Examples

A. I used a hammer to knock in a nail.
B. He used to be fat. (But he isn't any more.)
C. i) John is a miner, he is used to working very hard.
C. ii) Mining is hard work, you have to get used to working very hard.

I think you are mixing sense B. with sense C.

That said, when I think about it, this form can be used in sense C.

We might say,

"He had been/got(ten) used to getting up very late before he became a baker."
Or;
"He had been/got(ten) accustomed to getting up very late before he became a baker.

Note its also possible to use this form with sense A.

Carpenters had always used a hammer to knock in nails before the invention of the nail gun.

Even there, though,

Carpenters had to use hammers to knock in nails before the invention of the nail gun. Would be more likely.

Heck, they still use hammers anyway, you only use a nail gun when there's a lot of nailing to be done, but I digress.

[Lorikeet]

Why would you bother saying, "I had used to think that the world was round." when you could have said, "I used to think that the world was round." anyway?

Because the thinking changed at at point in the past and I wish to talk about the thinking that occured before that point. Isn't that what one of the uses of the past perfect is for?

Would you have a problem with:

I had been accustomed to...

That's the other meaning, as explained by Andrew, above. Your original examples were "I had used to think" not "I was used to thinking."

[LarryLatham]

Interesting discussion. I'm with Metal56, I think. There is a difference between "non-standard" and "unusual" English. This language, for me, might come under the heading of "unusual" (which often helps us to gain insight on subtle truths about how English is really used), but I don't think it should be classified as "non-standard".

Besides, there is a problem with Andy's Type B use in his post above. I think, Andy, you would be more accurate if you said: used followed by to and an infinitive verb indicating that something was true in the past, followed by a period of time when it was not true, and may or may not be true now.

Example: Two people who live in town talking at a party. One says: I used to live here when I was a boy, but moved to Chicago for university.

He lives here now and used to as a boy, but didn't for some period of time between.

Larry Latham

[metal56]

There are three verbs spelt use with three unrelated meanings. These verbs are generally considered to be different verbs rather than different forms of the same verb.

C i) Be use to and ii) Get use to followed by the gerund mean respectively:
[/quote]

I've never come across those spellings in the affirmative form of those construction.

[metal56]

[

[

u]Examples [/u]

A. I used a hammer to knock in a nail.
B. He used to be fat. (But he isn't any more.)
C. i) John is a miner, he is used to working very hard.
C. ii) Mining is hard work, you have to get used to working very hard.

I think you are mixing sense B. with sense C.

Not at all. I even know the difference between solía and acostumbrado in Spanish.

[metal56]

Carpenters had always used a hammer to knock in nails before the invention of the nail gun.

Even there, though,

Carpenters had to use hammers to knock in nails before the invention of the nail gun. Would be more likely.

The first one is generic use of "always used" and no reference to any obligation (they were free to use a stone, etc), the second is stating an obligation.

[metal56]

I think, Andy, you would be more accurate if you said: used followed by to and an infinitive verb indicating that something was true in the past, followed by a period of time when it was not true, and may or may not be true now.

It is interesting how some see it as "used to + infinitive" and others as "used+to+infinitive".

When we transfer the former descrition to the "be/get used to" version, a funny thing occurs:

I hate early mornings, I am so used to sleeping until nine or ten.

I hate early mornings, I am so used to late nights.

How do we read the structure in the latter adjective-noun combo? What function does the "to" have there and what is it "sticking" to?

[metal56]

... a period of time when it was not true, and may or may not be true now.

Example: Two people who live in town talking at a party. One says: I used to live here when I was a boy, but moved to Chicago for university.

He lives here now and used to as a boy, but didn't for some period of time between.

Hooooorahhh!

[LarryLatham]

I hate early mornings, I am so used to sleeping until nine or ten.

I hate early mornings, I am so used to late nights.

How do we read the structure in the latter adjective-noun combo? What function does the "to" have there and what is it "sticking" to?

These look to me like examples of Andy's Type C used to's.

One can get (or be) used to (something). The something here likely is a noun or noun equivalent (like a gerund).

Larry Latham

[metal56]

Here's the answer from Madson Bell:

I think of (had used) as a pluperfect-- a further degree of pastness.... if that's any help....

msb

[Andrew Patterson]

I think that I've figured out what's wrong with using "had" with "used to"

1. It's forcing "used to to act as a past participle, which it's not. It's the past simple. We can't say "had went."

2. Ironically, since it is in the past simple, "used to" nevertheless refers to an indefinite time. We know it happened in the past, but we don't know exactly when. This is because it refers to habits or continuous states which can't have a point-like reference of time even if adverbial expressions like "when I was a child" are used.

If you have no time reference to compare it to, you can't sensibly talk about what happened before that time.

That is why the past perfect usually contrasts with the present simple.

I think the mistake may have come about because since "used to" refers to an indefinite time that it's taken to be usable as the past participle.

[metal56]

I think that I've figured out what's wrong with using "had" with "used to"

1. It's forcing "used to to act as a past participle, which it's not. It's the past simple. We can't say "had went."

Can we say I use to? Used to is not really the past of anything related to "use". If it is, what are its other forms?

[Ed]

I think Andrew is right.

According to my grammar books and my Cambridge International Dictionary of English, "used to" only exists in this form, the Past Simple. It is probably a defective verb (I'm not sure if this is the right term).

Regards,

Ed

[LarryLatham]

This one is a corker, all right. I had a look at Swan, but didn't find much help there.

One thing that bothers me is whether we are talking about used to+an infinitive without to, or used+an infinitive with to. It seems to me that if we want to say that it is a verb in past tense we are talking about, then it must be used+an infinitive with to. Only the word used is inflected, and it's present form must be use. If it can have a past form, then why not a past participle? And since it apparently is a regular verb (if it is a verb at all), then the past participle would also be used. That would make had used to a perfectly acceptable form.

Larry Latham

[Andrew Patterson]

One test that you might want to do to prove that "used to" for discontinued habits and states is in the past simple is to look at the negative which is "didn't use to" here the past is shown by "did" leaving "use" in the infinitive in the same pattern that is used for most negative verbs in the past simple.

Once again, you can't form perfect tenses with the past tense.

Perfect tenses are formed using the past participle.