Perfect vs. Perfect Progressive

[Lighthouse1971b]

I have to complete an assignment in which I analyse the difference between these two aspects of English (Perfect & Perfect Progressive). I've compiled a list as a result of my brainstorming efforts.

Okay, for the benefit of shuntang (who flamed me below), Bernard Comrie devotes a whole chapter to "Perfect" in his book Aspect. He also devotes about 10 pages to "Progressive". Where have I erred, oh wise shuntang?

Semantically Equal

I have shaved since I was 18. I have been shaving since I was 18.

I have shaved for 6 years. I have been shaving for 6 years.

I have coughed all morning. I have been coughing all morning.

I have reached the summit every year for 20 years. I have been reaching the summit every year for 20 years.

I have lived here for 6 years. I have been living here for 6 years.

I have stood for one hour. I have been standing for one hour.

Semantically Unequal

I have learned English. I have been learning English.

The hikers have reached the summit. The hikers have been reaching the summit.

I have sung. I have been singing.


There are, of course, some examples that don't have a progressive form because of the restrictions on that aspect (in English).

I have have understood that since I was a child. * I have been understanding that since I was a child.

I have reached the summit. * I have been reaching the summit.


So, what does it all mean? I've been comparin' n' contrastin', but it ends up eluding me every time. Can somebody explain to me how "Perfect" and "Progressive Aspect" interact in English?

Go on, give it a go! [/u]

[shuntang]

If you understand what Aspect means, you can save a lot of time. What is Aspect? Try to know what you are talking about. Go on, give it a go!

[Lighthouse1971b]

Hmmm...just trying to have some fun. What a killjoy! You seem to think I would pretend to completely understand "Aspect". Would I be asking this question if I knew everything about it? YOU should try to know what you're talking about.

Do you have anything helpful to say or are you going to continue to be an e-tard and treat this forum like a chat room where you flame people?

[shuntang]

The group of Semantically Equal examples are talking about time, while the group of Semantically Unequal examples are not. Hope this helps.

[Lighthouse1971b]

The group of Semantically Equal examples are talking about time, while the group of Semantically Unequal examples are not. Hope this helps.

Please stop wasting my time.

[shuntang]

The group of Semantically Equal examples are talking about time, while the group of Semantically Unequal examples are not. Hope this helps.

Please stop wasting my time.

Before I pointed it out, did you know it at all? How much help is not wasting your time?

Others will give you more help, but I did help out a little.

[Lighthouse1971b]

Before I pointed it out, did you know it at all? How much help is not wasting your time?

Others will give you more help, but I did help out a little.

In light of the nasty and insulting tone of your original response, I think I can be forgiven for thinking that the extremely short response above was just another flame. If you indeed were trying to be helpful, then thank you. However, it didn't help me at all. It was far too vague. When you say "about time," what do you mean? According to Comrie, all tenses and aspects are about time. Time is either absolute or relative (in the case of tense) and aspect deals with "internal temporal constituency". Yes, I do know what those things mean.

So your response was not helpful in that context.

[shuntang]

Lighthouse,

Present Perfect is not a kind of Aspect, as I have proven and repeated here for many times. It talks about time, so it is a tense.

I have long noticed a kind of tense-changing process: telling the time of an action will have to change its tense. The basic meanings of Simple Past, Present Perfect, and Simple Present are no more than the following four simple rules:
(a) Simple Present action indicates a present action (=continuity):
Ex: I live in Hong Kong.
(b) Present Perfect action indicates a past action (=finish):
Ex: I have lived in Japan.
BUT: If we state a Definite Past Time Adverbial, tenses have to be changed:
(c) Present Perfect action indicates a present action (=continuity):
Ex: I have lived in HK since 2000/in the past three years.
(d) Simple Past action indicates a past action (=finish):
Ex: I lived in Japan in 1976/five years ago.
These few rules seem simple, but they can cover all the patterns of the three tenses.

Since usually Present Perfect Progressive tense mostly denotes a continuity, therefore its examples -- all of your Perfect Progressive examples -- are similar to #C examples, with Present Perfect talking about time, but are not similar to #B examples, with Present Perfect alone, without referring to any time.

[Lighthouse1971b]

Well...I can see what you're getting at I think. It seems to be about the presence or absence of adverbials and their effects on the verb group. It is a pattern (in my lists above) that had escaped me, so thank you for pointing that out. I'm still not convinced that your theory doesn't beg the question, though. I really need to be able to show the difference in a grammatical analysis.

Are you including intuitive adverbials in this idea? For example, I could say "I've been exercising and dieting, but I haven't lost weight." This could be uttered as a conversation opener. There is no explicit adverbial. How does that sentence differ from "I've exercised and dieted, but I haven't lost weight" in the same context?

By the way..and I mean no offense...what are your credentials? What you're saying appears to fly in the face of a lot of other sources. Please forgive me for being skeptical...but I really don't know who you are.

[shuntang]

Are you including intuitive adverbials in this idea? For example, I could say "I've been exercising and dieting, but I haven't lost weight." This could be uttered as a conversation opener. There is no explicit adverbial. How does that sentence differ from "I've exercised and dieted, but I haven't lost weight" in the same context?

You are fooling me. There is no adverbial, nor "intuitive adverbials", in your examples. Why shall we create jargon so often? What is the point?

I have no credentials at all. Why? They are only English tenses. What do you think they are? The complete sentence a baby can first utter also has to use tense, mostly a correct one. Shall he or she have some credentials?

Your diet example is also applicable to Present Progressive: "I am exercising and dieting, but I haven't lost weight." To tell the truth, they say nearly the same thing, don't they?

[Lighthouse1971b]

You are fooling me. There is no adverbial, nor "intuitive adverbials", in your examples. Why shall we create jargon so often? What is the point?

I have no credentials at all. Why? They are only English tenses. What do you think they are? The complete sentence a baby can first utter also has to use tense, mostly a correct one. Shall he or she have some credentials?

Your diet example is also applicable to Present Progressive: "I am exercising and dieting, but I haven't lost weight." To tell the truth, they say nearly the same thing, don't they?

As I said before...stop wasting my time. You are just arguing for the sake of argument. Everything you say is totally obvious and not insightful. I will not respond to anything else you post here. I suggest you "know what you're talking about" as you originally so RUDELY suggested.

[shuntang]

I am getting help for myself!! I give you the answer as I get one.

[Lighthouse1971b]

I will say one more thing. I've spent the past weekend studying:

Comrie, Bernard, Aspect. Cambridge University Press, 1976

(even while we have been posting our messages) and he addresses (in chapter 3) the ideas that you have been putting forward about tense. He disagrees with you. I suggest you find it at the library and read it because he explains it better than I can.

Also, you can find an explanation of the debate over tense/aspect in that book as well as in:

Hurford, James R. Grammar: A Student's Guide. Cambridge University Press, 1994 p. 239

You will find that jargon is, indeed, a pain in the neck. However, sometimes we need very specific terminology to avoid inaccuracies.

Best wishes. Enjoy your studies.

[shuntang]

No matter how he says, conventional grammars cannot explain Present Perfect. Can he?

I predict that, what he says to Present Perfect can be word for word said again to either Simple Present or Simple Past. Can you restate the opinion how he explains Present Perfect?

If Comrie is that good, how come you have to come here asking around?

[shuntang]

There are, of course, some examples that don't have a progressive form because of the restrictions on that aspect (in English).
I have have understood that since I was a child. * I have been understanding that since I was a child.
I have reached the summit. * I have been reaching the summit.

I don't know the exact reason why you say so, as I have no hint of that Aspect. I don't know why we should have such limitations. However, I recommend to add that we can easily find a lot of exceptions anytime:

Examples for have been understanding:

Ex: Librarians have been understanding societal needs for knowledge since the beginnings of libraries.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc44.htm

Ex: Mr Himona have been understanding and building Maori networks since leaving the Army in the early 1980s and working in Maori development as part of the team that set up the Mana loan scheme and the Maori Access job scheme.

Ex: Customers, he said, have been understanding since he first posted notices of the recall.
http://www.cfac.org/Attachments/secret_bad_beef.html

Ex: "She has been understanding since day one and knew going into this what it was going to be like, but she likes her space to, so it works out well."
http://www.af2.com/teams/quad_city_stea ... 74275.html

Ex: Yes, I have been understanding more about X since you had that talk with Ewald about pixmaps and images.
http://lists.trolltech.com/qt-interest/ ... 00629.html

Ex: "Bless my soul, Mr. Philip, that's just what I have been understanding all the time! I know your mind as well as you know it yourself.
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/ ... hap57.html

Ex: It's much less stressful to just live my life as I have been understanding that people are different and tolerating those differences.
http://www.doingnothing.com/wwwboard1/messages/299.html

Ex: Well, she just meant that I have been understanding what we learned, whilst my absence.
http://www.spymac.com/weblog/index.php? ... ow=comment

Ex: In my Physical Chemistry class I have been understanding the concepts more and more, not as confusing as before.
http://socriel.diaryland.com/afhwof.html

==============
Examples for have been reaching:

Your document outlines very precisely and clearly the basic rules I have been reaching to solidify.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/5927/think.htm

Ex: Now that I passed the first half of my course and I have been reaching the study goals that we defined together at the beginning, I would like to summarize my extremely positive experience with your school.
http://www.wallstreetenglish.ch/en/why_wsi.html

Ex: That is what I'm beginning to think. The rest of the physical traits seem to be cultural traits, I have been reaching the same conclusion bout the "hourglass figure".
http://forums.obgyn.net/endo/ENDO.9809/0265.html

Ex: Although production of ozone-destroying gases had been curtailed under international agreements, concentrations of the gases in the stratosphere have been reaching their peak.
http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Earth/ ... eHole.html

Ex: It has been suggested that as many as 45,000 single doses a week have been reaching the Toronto market.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Have+ ... rt=50&sa=N

Ex: Inflatable technologies for solar array deployment have been reaching maturity, and deployment of a large-area inflatable structure was demonstrated from the space shuttle.
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/08/space-sola ... -1997.html

Ex: Since that was years ago, these teachers have been reaching retirement age, and they are being replaced with less experienced faculty members.
Ex: http://www.pkwy.k12.mo.us/sod/IIb.html

Ex: It seems that certain critical messages may not have been reaching the upper echelons of government.
http://argument.independent.co.uk/low_r ... =6&dir=140

Ex: "We knew that industrial chlorofluorocarbons have been reaching the stratosphere, where they release free chlorine atoms which then break down Antarctic ozone by the end of winter," said ATMOS Principal Investigator Dr. Mike Gunson.
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/mis ... occ-15.txt
==============

As time goes by, we will know more and more how Aspect behaves.