Teacher Discussion Forums

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri May 14, 2004 2:24 pm

Is the use of "now" correct in the following:

Sarah began trembling, as now John had become very angry.

N.B. Could the "not correct" voters please say why it isn't correct and also give feedback on these (considering their contexts of course):

Once the child was born, the king's waistline shrunk even more, since now he had to figure out who would be on the invitation list to the baby's christening.
http://www.ithaca.edu/students/jgoldbe4/fairytales.html

Surely it was obvious to the driver that he was getting off, since now he had moved up the bus and was standing next to the door.
http://a6poets.org.uk/poems/027.htm

With God's judgments, behind every cloud there is a silver lining. Man had to learn responsibility, since now he had to work for a living.
http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/genesis/gen08.html

I have a sense that this is similar to the question of acceptability of "will have (done)" in the following (posted earlier):

"Temperatures routinely fell to 50 degrees below zero Fahrenheit. Polar bears padded across the snowy vales of southern England. Neandertals naturally retreated from the worst of it, but even so they will have experienced weather that was at least as bad as a modern Siberian winter."

Bill Bryson, A Short History of Everything.

Cheers!

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri May 14, 2004 2:29 pm

Nothing wrong with it.
Now doesn't mean the moment of speaking but the moment in the speaker's/writer's mind at the time of speaking.

Norm Ryder · Post by **Norm Ryder** » Sat May 15, 2004 5:17 am

metal56
The Oxford Dictionary gives "now" as an adverb, a conjunction and a noun. Is it possible that in the examples you offer it has more the effect of a conjunction (especially if associated with "since" or "as"); whereas if it were shifted next to the verb it would focus us more on the adverbial meaning of time?

I began by thinking that I personally would prefer "as John had now ... " at least on stylistic grounds [and likewise with the other examples: "since he now had to figure out ...."; "since he had now moved up the bus ..."; "since he now had to work ..." or "since he had now to work ...". But then I realised that I was thinking only of the adverbial, temporal sense of "now", and so looking for a closer association with the verb.

Clearly, if you have in mind to stress the contrast between two clauses of your statement, then you will place "now" as a (part of the) conjunction at the beginning of the second clause.

I'm afraid I've only traditional grammar terms at my fingertips. It would be good to hear from someone with more up-to-date grammatical tools whether something like this works for you too.

Norm.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:52 am

Norm Ryder wrote:metal56
The Oxford Dictionary gives "now" as an adverb, a conjunction and a noun. Is it possible that in the examples you offer it has more the effect of a conjunction (especially if associated with "since" or "as"); whereas if it were shifted next to the verb it would focus us more on the adverbial meaning of time?

I began by thinking that I personally would prefer "as John had now ... " at least on stylistic grounds [and likewise with the other examples: "since he now had to figure out ...."; "since he had now moved up the bus ..."; "since he now had to work ..." or "since he had now to work ...". But then I realised that I was thinking only of the adverbial, temporal sense of "now", and so looking for a closer association with the verb.

Clearly, if you have in mind to stress the contrast between two clauses of your statement, then you will place "now" as a (part of the) conjunction at the beginning of the second clause.

I'm afraid I've only traditional grammar terms at my fingertips. It would be good to hear from someone with more up-to-date grammatical tools whether something like this works for you too.

Norm.

Yes, Norm, "now" is more that a time adverb. In "Now children, sit down and be quiet!" it is a discourse marker , for example.

Sarah began trembling, as now John had become very angry.
Sarah began trembling, as John had become very angry.

I thinkthe first one suggests that the anger was part of, the peak of, an accumulation of mood changes. Now and then (before). John was agreeable, then mildy annoyed, then very angry.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:30 am

1. Hist. pres.: So, imagine the situation, Sarah is trembling and wants to leave because John has become very angry.

The writer attempts to transport us not only to the temporal situation but also the physical one.

Normal past: 2. Sarah was trembling and wanted to leave because John had become very angry.

The reader may be taken there or may remain distant-we do not know what was the writer's deictic intention.

Sarah was trembling and wanted to leave, since(because)now John had become very angry.

One reading:

Normal past "now" as contrast to/or marker of previous state. A change or culmination of events.

**4. now -- ((prefatory or transitional) indicates a change of subject or activity; "Now the next problem is...").

http://open-dictionary.com

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun May 16, 2004 10:32 pm

Catherine was Henry's fifth wife and much younger than the______ aging king.

Would you use:

now

or:

then

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:18 pm

"the now-aging king", which means more or less the same as the "by-then aging king".

Now is correct in the orignal example you give as well.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:04 am

Stephen Jones wrote:"the now-aging king", which means more or less the same as the "by-then aging king".

Now is correct in the original example you give as well.

Thanks Stephen. I've had so many deny its validity in past tense texts. I wish I could find a validation in a respected academic source-that's sometimes the only way to quieten the prescriptivists.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:12 am

Stephen Jones wrote:"the now-aging king", which means more or less the same as the "by-then aging king".

Now is correct in the orignal example you give as well.

I think it is this, but I do not have a contemporary edition:

7. Now sometimes refers to a particular time past specified or understood, and may be defined, at that time. He was now sensible of his mistake.

Webster's 1828

--------------------------

At a time contemporaneous with something spoken of or contemplated; at a particular time referred to.

The ship was now in the midst of the sea. Matt. xiv. 24.

Webster's 1913

What do you think?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:36 pm

I agree completely. I don't see the problem.

And, no, I don't think it's similar to the other notorious example you have resurrrected, like some Hammer Horror movie director producing "TheVampire Thread Sucks Again".

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:41 pm

The SOED gives this as one meanng of 'now' with coiuple of twentieth century examples.

At this time; at the time spoken of or referred to; (in narrative or discourse) then, next, by that time. LOE.

Merriam Webster gives as meaning number 6

At the time referred to

and the example

and now the trouble began

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:19 pm

For what it's worth, Stephen and Metal56, I also believe that the original example is unproblematic. Nothing I can see there strikes me as even the slightest bit odd. Same goes for your subsequent examples. And your explanation seems on the money as well.

Larry Latham

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:52 pm

LarryLatham wrote:For what it's worth, Stephen and Metal56, I also believe that the original example is unproblematic. Nothing I can see there strikes me as even the slightest bit odd. Same goes for your subsequent examples. And your explanation seems on the money as well.

Larry Latham

Why thank you, kind sir.

Get these little tidbits:

Unceasing was the play of wretched hands, Now this, now that way glancing, to shake off The heat, still falling fresh.

The cold wind stirs on the empty stair, squeaking and scampering everywhere. Then down they pounce, now in, now out, at whisking tail, and sniffing snout. ...

So through the living light my way
pursuing Directed I mine eyes o'er all the ranks, Now up, now down, and now ...

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Wed May 19, 2004 3:25 am

Not to mention:

"Now, DASHER! now, DANCER! now, PRANCER and VIXEN!
On, COMET! on CUPID! on, DONDER and BLITZEN!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"

Larry Latham

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed May 19, 2004 7:07 am

LarryLatham wrote:Not to mention:

"Now, DASHER! now, DANCER! now, PRANCER and VIXEN!
On, COMET! on CUPID! on, DONDER and BLITZEN!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"

Larry Latham

Perfect!

Tao on "now":

Then the four seasons will rise one after the other, the ten thousand things will take their turn at living. Now flourishing, now decaying, the civil and military strains will keep them in step; now with clear notes, now with dull ones, the yin and the yang will blend all in harmony, the sounds flowing forth like light, like hibernating insects that start to wriggle again, like the crash of thunder with which I awe the world. At the end, no tail; at the beginning, no head; now dead, now alive, now flat on the ground, now up on its feet, its constancy is unending, yet there is nothing that can be counted on. That’s why you felt afraid.

http://www.wholarts.com/psychic/MusicTao/10.htm

now

now

"now"

Re: "now"