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Skinny on Vietnam
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BenE

Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 321

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:00 am Post subject:

As Rosy as RMIT is for salary it still demands quite a lot from teachers. You have to be onsite for 40 hours even if you only teach for 20 hours. Sometimes this might be during the holiday period so you have to be there doing something (research, planning etc.) Also you should be there at around 7am if you are on the morning schedule for teaching is what the RMIT instructors told me. It's a job worth considering but I think it also comes with some sacrifices.

vabeckele

Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:33 am Post subject:

LettersAthruZ wrote:

I'd have to go along with the consensus here......basically, yeah, Viet Nam is great for a gap-year adventure........but long-term financial goals? Even a somewhat comfortable lifestyle with some money able to be saved at the end of every month.....????

Not likely......

.....is it just me, or is this thread becoming a giant advert for RMIT?

Yes, I'm glad somebody said it.

I got off of an airplane with no previous knowledge of the country and I had no idea what my chances were, except that I was pretty much likely going to start at a language mill - That's what happened. I've been bounced around here a lot. One thing holds true, whether the university, college, language centre, school is shiny or not they all have the problem of keeping staff. I have worked in one of these shiny colleges and the only constant is the change in managerial staff trying to keep up appearances with the knowledge that things are falling apart. Yes, the materials may be there at RMIT, but what about the knowledge? It isn't. And that holds true for ALL places.

The British uni? Well would you take a place seriously if you had to call him: His Royal Highness The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of Bath, Member of the Order of Merit, Knight of the Order of Australia, Companion of the Queen's Service Order, Member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty.

Or is it easier just to tell it like it is and call, Mr Tuan? He has stolen everything from these places and uses them in his own university system.

ExpatLuke

Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:47 am Post subject:

VietCanada wrote:

Yes many of those things can be found. For a price assuming it is the real thing and not some knock off. Buffalo meat burgers are not NA hamburgers. Pasta sauce made with a mayonnaise concoction is not NA pasta sauce. Sitting in a small, narrow, lightly padded, wooden chairs, eating sugared, buttered popcorn is also not my typical movie theatre experience from home. The electricity going off as it has three times in the past 10 days is not what I experienced back home. Knowing why would be nice but in the end it's irrelevant. The power going off is very inconvenient and initially upsetting if one is engaged in working on the PC or even playing a game or watching TV. This does not happen back home.

You can overcome these obstacles but as you've said it is quite outside the pay of a typical EFL'er. It may be worth the cost to buy a generator, spend $50 per or so to probably get an authentic western cuisine main course, buy a water filter to use tap water for something other than bathing, install a device for hot water, buy nice, new furniture that isn't just unpadded wood or cheap pressboard which disintegrates in the humidity, purchase electronic goods that don't fail within weeks, living in a place with a separate bedroom, equipped kitchen and private bath etc.

Learning the language so you really know what your neighbors and others think of you is small consolation.

If you move to a foreign country because you are enamoured with it and wish to make your last stand there then you can be happy. If you like teaching and traveling then you aren't going to spend on furniture, electronics or other creature comforts that you take for granted back home. Like electricity and hot water.

The disagreement isn't about VN or any other country, it's about career goals and motivation. If you want to spend your life here you can and you'll probably make a good life for yourself in the manner you expect according to best wages you can earn. If you're just passing through or haven't made that huge decision then no, absolutely this place and others is not like home. Apples and oranges.

What's unrealistic is suggesting to newbs with difficulties in their own country that coming here is just like home but cheaper. Easy work that's easy to find and you can live like a king. That is utter nonsence just as glossing over the reality of an uncertain supply of hot water, electricity and wages.

I don't have any disagreement with you about your career goals. I don't even know what they may be. I'm disagreeing with you on your portrayal of Vietnam in general.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but it certainly isn't first hand. You have multiple people telling your that your 'information' is incorrect, and you don't really seem to have any examples to back up your claims.

Electrical appliances don't simple fall apart... furniture is actually cheaper here than I've seen in the US. I've never not had hot water. Sure the electricity goes off from time to time, but it's infrequent enough that I've never been bothered by it. Actually, I much prefer the movie theaters here in Vietnam that most of the ones back home. I get to pick my seat, I can ensure that my whole party sits together, I don't have to worry about coming early for good seats, the seats are comfortable just like any movie theater I've ever been in. That's not the standard where I grew up in the US.

I don't know your situation, but I have to ask how long have you been living here? And where are you living that you don't have hot water, electricity, have to spend 50 to get a western meal? Just last week I had steak and lobster for about $15 usd in a very posh restaurant I took a date to.

Unless you're working as a volunteer at a less than desirable language mill, your image of life in Vietnam is about backwards as you can get...

If what you have described truly is your situation, then you have my condolences.

Concerning the comments I've been reading about RMIT and international schools, I can't say I can agree with many of those either. RMIT isn't a super exclusive club that's difficult to get hired into. If you just have the basic credentials (a degree and CELTA) you can be hired if you have a good interview and demo lesson. The same goes for many international schools. You don't need a degree in Education all the time. Many schools are hiring English teachers to teach regular classes because there's a lack of state certified regular teachers. Also, someone said that these international schools don't like to see that you have work experience at a language mill on your CV. That's completely untrue. Any experience you have teaching the age groups they're hiring for is highly desired by these employers.

1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:53 pm Post subject:

This has become a really interesting discussion Smile

BenE wrote:

As Rosy as RMIT is for salary it still demands quite a lot from teachers.

You have to be onsite for 40 hours even if you only teach for 20 hours. Sometimes this might be during the holiday period so you have to be there doing something (research, planning etc.) Also you should be there at around 7am if you are on the morning schedule for teaching is what the RMIT instructors told me.

It's a job worth considering but I think it also comes with some sacrifices.

Yep. They really do take good care of their staff but you're expected to perform. In regards to starting at 7am, like you said, that does happen, but it is for only one of a host of shifts, or 'streams' as they call them. If you are not a 'morning bird', a seven o'clock start can be heavy going, but at least you are not expected to do splits, unlike other schools out there.

I'm not sure whether I'd go so far to say that this thread has become "a giant advert for RMIT". Many people here have been critical of the conditions on offer in Vietnam and some posters, who are knowledgeable about the packages available at RMIT, have countered that it's not all doom and gloom. Personally I think that's fair enough.

kurtz wrote:

I guess by "nanny state" you mean the government tries to control lives too much. It's your choice to live in Vietnam which isn't a nanny state, but have fun if you need police assistance for anything. Perhaps driving on the roads wouldn't be such a dangerous experience if Vietnam was more of a "nanny state" or that foreigners wouldn't get ripped off for housing if there were rules to follow, or any of the other wild west behavior the locals like to indulge in.

Thanks for the reply kurtz.

By "nanny state", I don't really mean "that the government tries to control lives too much", although I do agree with this to an extent. And, you're right, I do kind of like living in places where you have to rely a bit on your wits. Another thing I really enjoy is knowing the types of people that you meet here and places like it. They are often far more adventurous and interesting than most of the people you'd met back home IMHO.

What I did mean by "nanny state" is that there is growing mentality in many Western countries, including Australia, that adults do not need to be held responsible for their own actions/laziness/stupidity because there is always a reluctant taxpayer or plaintiff that will do that for them. I could give scores of examples, but I don't want to derail the thread.

I will say this though. I've traveled a lot through a lot of poor countries and witnessed a lot of human suffering due to extreme poverty. It irks me when I go back to Australia and hear and see cases of three generations of the one family who have literally never done a days' work in their life! It makes me angry, perhaps more than it should. Whilst, believe it or not, I do admire the 'safety net', I abhor the culture of entitlement that it seems to breed. If we could just find a way to have one without the other then I'd probably feel very differently Confused

.

Just for the record, I don't believe we should do away with governments; I'm not an anarchist. You mentioned funding for education, health etc. and I don't begrudge that. Paying an army of bureaucrats to shuffle paper around is a different matter. The amount of waste that occurs in the Australian public sector is beyond belief and to continue the cycle all they need to do is to threaten a productive source with jail if they don't cough up their outrageous tax bills.

You mentioned the corruption that occurs in Vietnam and I am certainly not going to defend it. However, there is plenty of corruption in the West as well. It's just less visible there. That's not being 'PC', that's just a fact. The United States is an excellent example. Corporations spend more on lobbyists and political donations than they do on advertising. Think about that. This is all legal, but it begs the obvious question: why would they do this unless it is to gain political favors [which is the the textbook definition of corruption]? Anyway time to move on Embarassed

kutz wrote:

You seem like a decent chap Sarge, but may I ask what your goals are here? You mentioned that you can save without trying, but how much can you save? If you want to live in a lawless society, that's cool, but I fail to see how anyone can talk Vietnam up as a financial destination. It's a good place for those who want to live in a sunny SE Asian country with beautiful scenery, but if you want a future in terms of financial stability, have fun trying.

I don't think that I've talked up "Vietnam up as a financial destination". I just haven't 'talked it down'. A small distinction maybe but I feel the point should be made. I've been very clear and consistent in my posts, both on this thread and others, that, in my view, there are better places for money than here. However, Vietnam offers, IMHO, both the chance to save while having a good lifestyle at the same time. How many places in the world of TEFL can you actually say that about? It would certainly be a minority.

You also mentioned high inflation. I don't deny it. Even so, like I wrote before, what I was spending on accommodation in a week back in Australia four years ago was only slightly less than what I am paying for a month now in a better apartment. Taxes, entertainment and food are also much, much cheaper than in the West. If you are supporting a family then I guess the dynamics may change but, for me, these four things are my main items of expenditure.

In regards to how much I'm able to save, I've already given detailed information about my finances on page two of this thread and I'd prefer to leave it at that. I will say that my outgoings have remained pretty much the same since that original post, but my income has gone up. In regards to my own plans for the future, sorry, I don't really want to touch on that on an open forum. Don't get me wrong, under the circumstances, it was a fair enough question, but many of the people I work with know my handle and I'd rather not get into that here for personal reasons.

I'm With Stupid

Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:22 am Post subject:

VietCanada wrote:

Sitting in a small, narrow, lightly padded, wooden chairs, eating sugared, buttered popcorn is also not my typical movie theatre experience from home.

I watched The Hobbit in 3D at 48fps in Saigon. Most American cinemas aren't equipped to show that. And if they are, they charge at least twice as much.

1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:34 am Post subject:

I'm With Stupid wrote:

VietCanada wrote:

Sitting in a small, narrow, lightly padded, wooden chairs, eating sugared, buttered popcorn is also not my typical movie theatre experience from home.

I watched The Hobbit in 3D at 48fps in Saigon. Most American cinemas aren't equipped to show that. And if they are, they charge at least twice as much.

Not that I think it's a big deal either way but I do kind of agree with VietCanada about the popcorn. The Vietnamese seem to love it, but, IMHO, popcorn tastes best when it's buttery and salty. Anyway, like I said, it's hardly a big deal.

I just had a skim through the last couple of pages of this thread and I just noticed something that I thought was a little odd. Nobody, including myself, has thought to mention anything about the students Confused

. I know its been talked about on this forum many times before but, if we are discussing the comparative benefits of teaching here, I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come up.

Indeed, I know an excellent teacher who came back to Vietnam largely because of the typical students that you find here. He worked here for a few years, fancied a change and then went to Portugal to 'teach'. He loved the country, but hated 'teaching' Portuguese teenagers, or, the way he tells it, 'crowd controlling' Mad

. I don't want to slobber off the learners of other countries but, I think it's fair to say, that, on the whole, Vietnamese students are pretty damn good to teach and discipline is rarely a major issue.

I wrote before that only a minority of TEFL destinations offered teachers the chance to save while having a good lifestyle at the same time. However, I'll now add that, on top of this, teachers in Vietnam can also invariably expect to deal with conscientious and respectful students. To me that's a big thing and, although it's sad to say, the reality is that, combining all these conditions together, is not the 'worldwide norm' in our industry. Vietnam, in my view, is one of the very few notable exceptions.

kurtz

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:55 pm Post subject:

With all due respect Sarge, I don't think you can use an anecdote from a teacher who taught in Portugal to sustain the idea that VN students are a pleasure to teach. In class I've seen a rapid increase in the use of smart phones which I really hate; they are a teacher's curse; as well as bad language and other niceties as a result of American TV. When I was in the mills the students demanded edutainment in the form of games and competitions, but this may have been attributed to inept teachers bowing down to them as a result of their teaching inadequacies. The question is as such; will Vietnamese students, upon further exposure to foreign cultures, and with the possibility of increased wealth in the future, be the little angels that you make them out to be? Personally, I doubt it. I have the feeling us big noses used to have a certain "wow factor" attached to us. Now, we're just another foreigner on a fairly low salary and with quite low status. Will our students respect us in the future?

1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject:

kurtz wrote:

With all due respect Sarge, I don't think you can use an anecdote from a teacher who taught in Portugal to sustain the idea that VN students are a pleasure to teach. In class I've seen a rapid increase in the use of smart phones which I really hate; they are a teacher's curse; as well as bad language and other niceties as a result of American TV. When I was in the mills the students demanded edutainment in the form of games and competitions, but this may have been attributed to inept teachers bowing down to them as a result of their teaching inadequacies.

The question is as such; will Vietnamese students, upon further exposure to foreign cultures, and with the possibility of increased wealth in the future, be the little angels that you make them out to be? Personally, I doubt it. I have the feeling us big noses used to have a certain "wow factor" attached to us. Now, we're just another foreigner on a fairly low salary and with quite low status. Will our students respect us in the future?

Interesting. In regards to the anecdote of the teacher that taught in Portugal, well, that was just an anecdote. When I was writing it just seemed like a handy, real-life example to lead-in to the point I was going to make. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to maintain that it was used successfully or unsuccessfully to "sustain" something then I guess there is no harm in that either.

In regards to my making Vietnamese students out to be "little angels", I don't think I went that far. I did say that they "are pretty damn good to teach", that "discipline is rarely a major issue" and that they are mostly "conscientious and respectful". Those comments weren't hyperbole by the way and that's honestly been my experience of teaching here over the last three or so years.

Even the 'bad' students I've had here, haven't been that bad. A quiet word out in the hallway is the most I've ever had do with a problem student. I've never taught small kids, but I've taught plenty of teenagers. Geez, looking back to what my high school classes were like at that age, the teenagers I've taught here have comparatively been a breeze Embarassed

.

Anyway, like I said, that's just been my experience, but maybe I've been lucky. If others have any thoughts on the quality of student discipline here it would great to hear more Smile

ExpatLuke

Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject:

Most of the middle and high school students I taught it Hanoi were spoiled hell-spawn. Nearly every student I've encountered in Danang has been friendly, respectful, and eager to learn. I was really surprised. It was like a night and day shift.

VietCanada

Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject:

ExpatLuke wrote:

VietCanada wrote:

My portrayal of Vietnam is that it is a developing country with unreliable electricity, hot water and wages. I see you agree with the electricity being unreliable but you seem to think that your experience with wages and hot water are everyones. I can't believe you live in Vietnam and are not aware that hot water is not standard. You have to purchase a wall mounted unit and hire someone to install it or move into a western style unit with hot water. I've been here 5 years and it only took me a week to find that out. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you arguing that every house and apartment in VN has hot water? I think not because that would be an outrageous lie.

I went out for a fillet (medium rare as per my specs) with mashed potato and fried veggies, a bottle of wine and desert. $75 for one. Nice big, comfy chairs, table cloth, napkins, cutlery, glasses. Nicely decorated, dimly lit, clean, restaurant with AC, a bar. I went to an all you can eat seafood buffet for only $15 per less beers. Small metal stools, a metal table, restaurant open to the street, chopsticks and spoon, toilet paper, cheap mug with an ice cube, flourescent lights, well you get what you pay for. I was happy at both places.

Examples? The Whitehorse and Tom's Seafood in HCMC. Usually though I eat at home or buy street food for a buck and a half like everyone else does.

Your movie theatre example is equally mispresented. Picking your seat is easy. At the Galaxy you do that when you buy your tickets. First come, first serve, big deal. Go when it's not busy and I sit where I want anyway. Popcorn with sugar, hotdogs with some indescribably awful taste. I actually spit it out. No huge chocolate bars, the choice of goodies at the concession stand was very small. But that's what I'd expect in a country where people have different flavour preferences than me. The seats are narrow and leg space is very small. The padding is quite minimal but than that's what I'd expect in a country where the people are lighter and smaller than me. To suggest that the movie theatre experience in VN is absolutely superior to that in the US is also outrageous.

But then you aren't arguing that VN is better than the US right? You are not saying that you'll get a higher pay for less work, work that's easier to get mind you, and that everything you could possibly want in life is easy to get and cheaper than it is in the US. You aren't saying that. You are just attacking posters ( If what you have described truly is your situation, then you have my condolences , your image of life in Vietnam is about backwards as you can get) that are pointing out that VN is a developing country with an unreliable supply of electricity, hot water and wages.

There are numerous examples all over this board yet you come to this single thread and pretend there aren't while challenging posters to give examples that might reveal their identities. Where are your examples?

What list of restaurants so numerous that it's easy for anyone in VN to get a steak for less than $20, what theatre chain or chains that are so ubiquitous that anyone is going to have a better experience watching a movie than they would anywhere in the west? I think you are exaggerating. That is a disservice to readers.

VietCanada

Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject:

I find the students here to be pretty good. I've worked in private and public schools, KG, elementary, middle school, high school and adults. Overall I think the public school children, private young children and adults were better behaved as a group. The outliers are a different story. Bad is bad I think. Doesn't matter what country or age, private or public. I found older private school children were lazier and potentially less respectful as a group. Same thoughts for good students. They are a gem no matter what age, country or status. Here in VN I think there are more good students in the public system as a percentage. Every year it seems I have a class or two that are just chaotic. A few students that are only happy when they are disrupting the class. The teacher or AT just seems to have given up. Way to much work for the pay IMHO. I stick around a bit and then quit the class if things don't improve.

ExpatLuke

Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:36 am Post subject:

VietCanada wrote:

What list of restaurants so numerous that it's easy for anyone in VN to get a steak for less than $20, what theatre chain or chains that are so ubiquitous that anyone is going to have a better experience watching a movie than they would anywhere in the west? I think you are exaggerating. That is a disservice to readers.

I live in Danang. A town considerably smaller than Saigon. If I can find it here... you can find it much more easily in Saigon. Come to Danang and I'd show you several fine dining restaurants or resorts where you can get a steak dinner for less than $20. And I've found the Megastar Cinemas to be superior to the Wehrenberg Cinemas I'm used to back home.

It seems to be you just want to hate it here, and no matter how many people tell you that your doom and gloom perspective is wrong, you won't listen.

VietCanada

Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590

Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:31 pm Post subject:

ExpatLuke wrote:

VietCanada wrote:

I don't hate it here. I just think it's wrong to portray this country or any other EFL destination as being 'just like home only cheaper'. I don't remember who said that and I'm really not interested in resurrecting this. Just trying to explain myself a little better.

Prof.Gringo

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject:

VietCanada wrote:

ExpatLuke wrote:

VietCanada wrote:

Nice, well balanced reply. THANKS!

And if we are going to COMPARE apples to apples and oranges to oranges, I had a MUCH higher quality of LIFE in Mexico City Mexico versus HCMC, VN.

Food: Mex Food beats VN HANDS-DOWN! And in Mex DF I could always find an excellent choice of American food, both for meals eating out and at AMERICAN stores such as Wal-Mart, COSTCO etc.

Healthcare: Sure, drugs are dirt cheap in VN, even cheaper than Mexico and almost everything is OTC, unless of course you want a drug which isn't even heard of in VN, then you are SOL Razz

Mexico has FREE healthcare for tourists, and the NATIONAL healthcare system is included in ANY legit job with a contract.

People: Mexicans are friendly, easy-going folks who are much easier to get along with, I don't have to adapt to an agra-village based mentality turned smart-phone "good job" BS illusion that exists in VN.

Langauge: I speak fluent Spanish. I threw away my LP Vietnamese book after a week in VN.

I do like the women in VN and the men are about 98% Betas, and I am not some old man quaffing down beers all day on PNL in D-1, so it's
fun and easy to get girlfriends in VN.

Work: I always had full-time work in Mexico if I wanted it, but I never wanted more than 20 hours week in VN.

Flights: Big downside to VN are the Trans-Pacific hops. Mexico City is about 3 hours away from most major US cities located withing the southern 3rd of the USA.

Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.

Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:47 am Post subject:

Future postings that are off-topic, derailing, insulting or otherwise inappropriate will result in severe sanctions. This can and will include permanent banning, as appropriate.

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