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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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 Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:31 pm Post subject: Expats just not learning Japanese |
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I have been back in the US for a while, but this always bothered me; Why do so many expats ( I mean those in Japan for more than a year or two) seem to not learn any Japanese at all? I know that there are many that do, but it seems as though 90% just don't bother to, past 'One more beer'.
I see this as really limiting, as you can not really have any meaningful relationship with most of the populace. You limit who you can befriend, to a small pool. Especially if you live outside of the larger cities.
Why not spend 10 minutes a day studying the language of the country that you reside in? Are they lazy? Do they just do enough to just get by? I just don't understand that mentality.
For those that do study, good for you, and keep on trucking. If you don't study, think of this as motivation to start. It really isn't that hard. Like exercise, the best plan is consistency. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:03 am Post subject: |
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My Japanese is horrendous. My first time here it was passable to an extent and I studied more since it was ALT work and used Japanese on a daily basis. I returned home after the earthquake for a year and forgot a lot. Since returning last year, I've been doing Eikaiwa work, surrounded by English all the time and discouraged from using it in the workplace. I want to do lessons and start at the beginning again through work as it is provided but...my managers tend to schedule me for lessons during time that's free to me usually on ocassion which means no class.
I'm the type who learns best in a classroom setting, where I can ask questions to better understand. I guess for me though, I don't have many opportunities to use Japanese outside of basic stuff. You have less time to travel too compared to ALTs and less time because of the higher workload. Should I study more? Most definitely...just wish I had more consistency. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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I often wonder the same thing. I'm going to speak openly here, get ready...
I didn't have any respect for foreigners living in my home country who couldn't speak English (Despised them to be honest), so I made sure as soon as I got here to study my arse off.
How people can live in a country for years without learning the basics, I just can't understand. If you don't have enough interest in the country to learn the language, why are you even here? Money alone? If that's the case, there's better countries to be teaching English in.
Another thing that grinds my balls, those gaijin you see walking around with some Japanese girl on their arm, talking in English publicly and loudly. Don't you see how bad that looks? You came here, stole one of their women and can't even be bothered to learn their language. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| ssjup81 wrote: |
My Japanese is horrendous. My first time here it was passable to an extent and I studied more since it was ALT work and used Japanese on a daily basis. I returned home after the earthquake for a year and forgot a lot. Since returning last year, I've been doing Eikaiwa work, surrounded by English all the time and discouraged from using it in the workplace. I want to do lessons and start at the beginning again through work as it is provided but...my managers tend to schedule me for lessons during time that's free to me usually on ocassion which means no class.
I'm the type who learns best in a classroom setting, where I can ask questions to better understand. I guess for me though, I don't have many opportunities to use Japanese outside of basic stuff. You have less time to travel too compared to ALTs and less time because of the higher workload. Should I study more? Most definitely...just wish I had more consistency. |
What do you do outside of work? I did my time as an Eikaiwa monkey. It is rough, but I was able to study, do all the housework(wife was in college doing a tough major), hit the gym everyday, do the grocery shopping, and still squeezed in some study time.
Don't depend on people when it comes to improving yourself. You have to take control of it, and make your own way. Take classes at the local community center, and get a study buddy or a language exchange partner. Take ownership of your situation. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
I often wonder the same thing. I'm going to speak openly here, get ready...
I didn't have any respect for foreigners living in my home country who couldn't speak English (Despised them to be honest), so I made sure as soon as I got here to study my arse off.
How people can live in a country for years without learning the basics, I just can't understand. If you don't have enough interest in the country to learn the language, why are you even here? Money alone? If that's the case, there's better countries to be teaching English in.
Another thing that grinds my balls, those gaijin you see walking around with some Japanese girl on their arm, talking in English publicly and loudly. Don't you see how bad that looks? You came here, stole one of their women and can't even be bothered to learn their language. |
It does bother me to a degree as well. I think it is sad that some of these guys(usually guys) have to defend on their girl to do everything for them. Order at restaurants, do all the banking and what not. It is sad if you can't do any of that yourself.
If you are here for 5 or more years, learn the language already. I have met many who can't, and I can't believe they have been in Japan that long. Once you hit intermediate you start picking up a lot naturally. It really isn7t that hard, if you put in the effort. |
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kah5217
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 270
Location: Ibaraki
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to play the devil's advocate here.
Speaking for myself, I just can't fit studying time into my schedule. It's complicated by the fact that I'm not a listening/speaking oriented learner. Even after 4 years of study and being here twice, I doubt I'd clear the N3. Put a sign or book in front of me, I can probably understand it. But reading aloud is very difficult.
It's easy for everyone here to say "learn it, it's not that hard", "don't speak English, you're in Japan", and "quit depending on others". Think of all the students we've taught. They have English class 3/4 times a week for 6 years in school, so how come they can't say anything besides "sankyuu" and "please give me" when they graduate? English isn't that hard if you put forth effort, after all. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| ssjup81 wrote: |
My Japanese is horrendous. My first time here it was passable to an extent and I studied more since it was ALT work and used Japanese on a daily basis. I returned home after the earthquake for a year and forgot a lot. Since returning last year, I've been doing Eikaiwa work, surrounded by English all the time and discouraged from using it in the workplace. I want to do lessons and start at the beginning again through work as it is provided but...my managers tend to schedule me for lessons during time that's free to me usually on ocassion which means no class.
I'm the type who learns best in a classroom setting, where I can ask questions to better understand. I guess for me though, I don't have many opportunities to use Japanese outside of basic stuff. You have less time to travel too compared to ALTs and less time because of the higher workload. Should I study more? Most definitely...just wish I had more consistency. |
What do you do outside of work? I did my time as an Eikaiwa monkey. It is rough, but I was able to study, do all the housework(wife was in college doing a tough major), hit the gym everyday, do the grocery shopping, and still squeezed in some study time.
Don't depend on people when it comes to improving yourself. You have to take control of it, and make your own way. Take classes at the local community center, and get a study buddy or a language exchange partner. Take ownership of your situation. |
Usually working on something work related or making up sleep. The place I worked for last year I was the only teacher. This year I have more time so I do study a bit more, unless I'm stuck with extra lessons, like the entirety of September, but I still do best in a classroom.
Last edited by ssjup81 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: |
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I studied Japanese for a few months, and gave up when I realised I had no opportunity to practice it. The only Japanese people who want to speak to me want to practice their English. Even in stores they don't like it if I try and talk in (very bad) Japanese, but you've got to start somewhere!
I knew I was only going to be here for a couple of years, so I'd never get that far with it anyway. I didn't see the point in putting anymore time into it. I've got other stuff I'd rather be doing. If I was here for the long haul, then yeah, I would have made it a priority but as it is, I don't think it's made much difference to my time here. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. That's the main problem. Nowhere to fully practice it outside of a classroom, which is why I said I learn best in a classroom setting with a teacher.
Last edited by ssjup81 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:50 am Post subject: |
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I cannot get past the pre-intermediate stage.
I did not start learning until age 30.
It was never offered where I studied in America.
I have had some bad teachers.
I am better at listening than I am at reading.
My own wife from Osaka said she would prefer me to work on Saturday than go to Japanese class! So there you go, but I attend when I have time.
Looking for work for next year is more important.
It does not help that I have no friends which to practice with and that life here is dominated by work.
Last edited by mitsui on Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Well, at least you can practice Japanese with your wife. I haven't a bf or hubby. lol |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I studied Japanese for a few months, and gave up when I realised I had no opportunity to practice it. |
You're in Japan, everywhere outside of the English classroom can be a place to practice it.
| Quote: |
| The only Japanese people who want to speak to me want to practice their English. |
Perhaps if you could speak Japanese you'd meet some Japanese people who'd see you as more than an English machine. Stay clear of the Japanese who can speak English, 95% of them are just out to use you.
| Quote: |
| Even in stores they don't like it if I try and talk in (very bad) Japanese, but you've got to start somewhere! |
I understand completely, it was really tough for the first year or so for any of us who came to Japan with zero Japanese, but ask anyone who has got to the intermediate stage or surpassed it and they'll tell you that it does get better.
| Quote: |
| I don't think it's made much difference to my time here. |
No of course not, speaking the language of the country you're in makes no difference to your standard of life at all. Being able to only communicate with the Japanese people who want to practive their English must be a splendid way to live and experience Japan. I'm sure your experience of Japan was no different to someone who came here and learnt to speak Japanese.
Please tell me you don't really believe that. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I studied Japanese for a few months, and gave up when I realised I had no opportunity to practice it. |
You're in Japan, everywhere outside of the English classroom can be a place to practice it. |
Well perhaps we live in different Japans, because being in the country is not sufficient if no-one will speak to you. And around here, the vast majority of people don't want to talk to foreigners in any language.
| nightsintodreams wrote: |
Perhaps if you could speak Japanese you'd meet some Japanese people who'd see you as more than an English machine. Stay clear of the Japanese who can speak English, 95% of them are just out to use you. |
Well that's the Catch 22 isn't it? In order to get to be good enough to have a conversation, I need to be able to practice the basics. I can't practice the basics if no-one will speak to me.
| nightsintodreams wrote: |
No of course not, speaking the language of the country you're in makes no difference to your standard of life at all. Being able to only communicate with the Japanese people who want to practive their English must be a splendid way to live and experience Japan. I'm sure your experience of Japan was no different to someone who came here and learnt to speak Japanese.
Please tell me you don't really believe that. |
You missed my point quite spectacularly.
I'm sure it's a completely different experience for people who do speak the language, but in the time I had available, that was never going to be me. I was not going to reach the stage where I could have a reasonably fluent conversation in Japanese.
As you said yourself, things would not really improve until I reached intermediate level, and that wasn't going to happen in the time I had. So, continuing to study and getting to A2, maybe even B1 at a push, before I left, would have made no difference to me or my life, because I would still only be able to speak to people looking for free English lessons.
In many other countries, there is an intermediate stage. So having even a little of the local language smooths things over, and people will often encourage you to try to communicate with the little language you do have. In that case it's worth making the effort to learn what you can, even if you don't get very far, because it's still useful. That stage seems to be largely missing in Japan. So unless you are going to be staying long enough to progress to a high enough level, there is little to no benefit to having a low level of the language. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kah5217 wrote: |
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here.
Speaking for myself, I just can't fit studying time into my schedule. It's complicated by the fact that I'm not a listening/speaking oriented learner. Even after 4 years of study and being here twice, I doubt I'd clear the N3. Put a sign or book in front of me, I can probably understand it. But reading aloud is very difficult.
It's easy for everyone here to say "learn it, it's not that hard", "don't speak English, you're in Japan", and "quit depending on others". Think of all the students we've taught. They have English class 3/4 times a week for 6 years in school, so how come they can't say anything besides "sankyuu" and "please give me" when they graduate? English isn't that hard if you put forth effort, after all. |
I am not a listening learner at all. I will forgot what was told in seconds.
Everyone has time, you have to make room for it. It is the same as exercising. You have the time, just not the effort.
It is hard, but it is doable. The Japanese have the worst approach to language learning possible, and are not motivated to learn. So of course they don't learn. That is a terrible way to look at it, and I have to say that you are wrong.
Find your motivation, that is how you will progress. Classes, as you see in Japan are a very limited for of language learning. You can do it, you just need to take charge. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| HLJHLJ wrote: |
I studied Japanese for a few months, and gave up when I realised I had no opportunity to practice it. The only Japanese people who want to speak to me want to practice their English. Even in stores they don't like it if I try and talk in (very bad) Japanese, but you've got to start somewhere!
I knew I was only going to be here for a couple of years, so I'd never get that far with it anyway. I didn't see the point in putting anymore time into it. I've got other stuff I'd rather be doing. If I was here for the long haul, then yeah, I would have made it a priority but as it is, I don't think it's made much difference to my time here. |
How can you not practice Japanese in Japan? Seriously think about that. That is a cop out if I have ever heard one. |
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