Job Discussion Forums

[AussieGus]

G'day everyone.

I'm a 38 year old Australian with a background of ESL teaching in Asia, mostly South Korea but also Vietnam and Laos. I have a BA with a major in anthropology and a TESOL. I taught in Asia from 2001 after graduating until 2009 when I returned to Australia and unexpectedly met my Chinese wife (I wouldn't be here otherwise). She was studying nursing at the time, has a well paying job now, thinks Australia is the land of milk and honey and wants to stay here. I don't. Life in Australia has deepened my depression which, I suspect, is the case for many western ESL teachers who return home. Despite having a wonderful, pristine environment, advanced infrastructure and a medical and education system which is the envy of the world, I find living in Australia deflating, boring, bland, one dimensional and demeaning. I'm reasonably well educated, well spoken and attractive (blonde hair and blue eyes) but Australia doesn't appreciate my unique qualities and I've found life here difficult to say the least. That may sound narcissistic but its reality. I'm not maximizing myself here and the knowledge, cultural awareness and life experience I gained in Korea is going to waste. I'm currently working at an Aged Care facility as a carer for $17 per hour, washing the behinds of old people with dementia which is the only work I can get in Australia. Its an important job but one I'd rather not do! Teaching or tutoring is not an option in an English speaking, elitist and highly competitive country like Australia where they'd rather keep people on welfare than risk a lowering of job standards. I don't have the requisite Dip Ed nor am I prepared to return to uni at my age. Yes, I'm bitter about Australia. If I was an uneducated Chinese or Indian I'd have a far better chance of procuring meaningful work here as they look after their own, unlike Anglo Australians.

Anyway the bottom line is I have few opportunities down under and prefer the exotic life in Asia than the traditional one given my interest in Asian culture. However am I being selfish in relocating my pregnant wife and son (aged 2 years) to China where my qualifications, teaching experience and ethnicity will (hopefully) hold me in good stead? I'm aware that China is a developing country and also all that implies. I was thinking of a coastal city like Dalian where the pollution isn't too bad (and which shares some similarities with my hometown Melbourne) to make a new start with my family. Or should I stay put and keep working as a carer in a nursing home and sacrifice myself for my family? Any advice would be much appreciated. My wife thinks western ESL teachers in China are 'white trash' so I intend to prove her wrong. Its a difficult decision. We live comfortably in Australia and I love my family but I'm not happy. I prefer the life in Asia.

[Javelin of Radiance]

G'day sir. here are some related threads for you to have a look at. This topic seems to come up from time to time so you'll probably get a lot of repeat answers on your thread. Some of these go back to '09-'10 but lots of the info contained therein will still hold true.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=82403&highlight=family

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=81037&highlight=family

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=76613&highlight=family

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=101986&highlight=family

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=104780&highlight=family

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=75080&highlight=family

Does your wife have any interest in moving here? Getting her to agree seems to be your first hurdle. If she's ok with it you need to start doing some serious planning, where to go, job search, how much income will you need, find a half decent place for your kids to start growing up, etc. If your wife is pregnant right now then I assume this is a plan for next year or later? Some posters like mambawamba, who I believe arrived in China with a family, can likely give you better advice than the restofus. Or some of the people who started a family after arriving here. In the end you wouldn't be the first person to make this kind of move, and hopefully you find out what you need and can make an informed decision. Good luck.

[AussieGus]

Thanks mate. I appreciate that. I'll have a look at the archives. I was aware that I might not be the first person who has faced this dilemma!

After much convincing my wife is prepared to give it a go, under duress. She has Australian permanent residency now so she's aware that if things go pear shaped we can always come home to Australia. However she doesn't see the logic in going back to a country that her parents sacrificed everything to get her out of. The fact that I can't reach my potential in Australia or make much money has finally swayed her. She's sick of seeing me miserable.

My interest and experience revolves around teaching adults, mostly Uni students and businessmen at hogwans in Korea. I really enjoyed it as I learned as much from them as they did from me. I have a certain affinity with cultures, social systems, east v west, cultural relativity, comparing worldviews and dissecting them which goes with being a foreign ESL teacher. I have also taught children of all ages and would be prepared to do so again as a means to an end.

What would be an ideal part of China to settle in given my circumstances and qualifications? I'm thinking a 2nd tier city like Dalian. Baoding, in Hebei, where my wife is from is a dump and I wouldn't subject my kids to that. I've spent time there though haven't lived there.

Would I be better off saving up enough money to move to China with the family, setting up a home and then start to look for work? Is there any alternative?

Yep, the plan is to go next year as my wife is due to give birth in July. My eldest would then be nearly three and the baby about 8+ months.

[thatsforsure]

Hey Gus. You and I have a lot of similarities, so I can see where you're coming from. I'm happy to discuss more over PM if you like.

You won't want to hear this, but I don't think you should go to China. Believe me when I say I feel the same boredom and frustration in my own western country. But it's really hard for a westerner to make a permanent life in China. Visas and jobs don't lend themselves to stability, and stability is what your kids will need.

I'm not going to go into every issue, but some of the main ones are:

-In China, your life can be uprooted at any moment, depending on government regulations and how they're applied. For example, the place where you build a life could decide to enforce the "five-year-rule" and you could be kicked right out.
-I can't think of any westerner who's let their kids go all the way through the Chinese school system through high school graduation. Middle school is usually the upper limit. The problem is that the system focuses intensely on preparing for the GaoKao, and that's a massive wasted effort for foreign kids. But international schools are prohibitively expensive for a teacher.
-Getting permanent residence is going to be tough, and without it, when you decide to retire, it's going to be hard to stay in China.
-No situation you create in China -- even if you start earning $20 million a year -- can ever compare to the health care system you have in Australia.
-As a foreigner, you have no safety net whatsoever if you should become sick or disabled.
-I think you're going to end up with a resentful wife. That does not bode well.

In my view, most of your problem results from your job situation. I'd focus on changing that. I would reconsider your opposition to going back to school. You might not need to do a full degree, but I would think that some kind of retraining program, certificate, etc. could get you into a career you'd enjoy more. The stimulation of doing the program might also bring you a little bit of the spark you're longing for in life.

[AussieGus]

Thanks for the response.

I agree with the pitfalls of a long term move to China and that's why we'll have to return to Australia when my eldest child is about 6-7 which gives us 4-5 years. That's all I'm asking my wife for, four years to live somewhere where I can have a meaningful life. I'm aware that it would be ludicrous to stay longer than that. The problem will be that the same problems I have in Australia now will return in intensified form when I return and I'll be four years older. Still, that respite would give me a huge lift and other opportunities might come out of it. Your right about my wife not being happy, all her friends have desperately fought to stay in Australia and now her silly laowai husband wants to take her back to hell. What is it with the Chinese in Australia. WHAT'S SO GOOD ABOUT AUSTRALIA? Life here is banal, sanitised and one dimensional, everything is regulated, the cost of living is sky high and decent jobs are tough to get without impeccable qualifications and experience in the industry. All this for a good medical system and fresh air?

Even if I did return to study and completed a tangible degree there's no guarantee I'd get a decent job here even then. Not in my 40's, Australia is so ageist. Its also rife with drugs here which I'm guessing won't be the case in China and Australia has a brutal drinking culture. Its difficult for a young man to go out these days without being targeted by drunken, steroid crazed thugs. There are advantages in taking your kids to China as well.

Would moving to China for just 4-5 years with a view to saving money and then returning home be more feasible?

Would I be able to find a satisfying job there teaching adults quickly? I wouldn't mind a private institute or a university. Never worked in China before.

Where would you guys go in my situation? As I said I was thinking Dalian but are there any other options? Looking for a relatively wholesome place with open spaces and not too much pollution (somewhere atleast tolerable for a family with small kids and western amenities).

Thanks in advance for any more replies. I need some advice![/b]

[thatsforsure]

Gus,

There's a lot in your post. I'm not going to tell you it's wrong, because it's mostly subjective and much of it applies to the USA, too.

But I would add a few lines in answer to your question:

[fpshangzhou]

Hello,
I thought I would chime in since I have a family here and some of the reasons mentioned for working abroad ring home to me as well. We just had a baby here in Hangzhou and are finding it very expensive and difficult to raise her comfortably. Here are a few challenges we have been faced with to date:

Baby food is 3 times the price back home (must buy int'l brand because China has history of health risks with baby formula)

Daycare is extremely expensive for an esl teacher salary and double the cost of daycare in a western country. Not to mention, language barriers for communicating (not in your wife's case).

As noted above, the healthcare system in China is cheaper, but known for unsanitary conditions, and barbaric & archaic medical system. Although very expensive, we opt for western clinics/hospitals for baby medical needs.

Air quality is terrible all around. We live in one of the cleaner cities, but the air quality is still questionable, especially for babies & children.

I have had an unbelievable experience in China, but due the stated reasons and more, we've decided to take the baby outside of the country within the next year and have her raised in a more stable and healthy and affordable environment.

I don't want to deter you from doing your thing, but just keep those things in mind when deciding to come abroad with family.

If your true calling is being abroad and teaching young adults, you can take the advice of the other poster and get a teaching license for high school and work for an international school. The pay is at least double of an esl teacher, plus you would get a nice expat package, including free/discounted enrollment for your kids when they reach school age, and job opportunities worldwide. I'm not sure what the qualifications to attaining a teacher license, but that's one idea that has been stirring on my mind for the last year. Anyhow, keep us posted and if you need further information, just pm me.

Cheers,

Aaron

[SledgeCleaver]

I'm not exactly the same as you, in that I'm unattached, however even in that situation I eventually decided to get a teaching license rather than remain in the ESL biz. Anthropology is not the best subject in terms of hiring conditions, but maybe try to get certified in two areas, for example TESOL and social studies. If you have a teaching license in TESOL, you will have a chance to work for better schools, for example genuine international schools.

Uni is good and inexpensive in Australia as I understand, plus you have a wife with a good job who can support your aspirations. Just suck it up and get a degree. I know it sucks, I didn't want to go back to school, but once you got into it it wasn't too hard, and at the end, it feels good. That 1-2 years of work gives you (and your family) better opportunities for DECADES.

Once you're certified, you can get jobs in the types of schools that offer free tuition for one or more children. So, your children could go to private international school. Hard for the wife to argue with that.

You might have to go to China to get experience (or somewhere else not as ritzy as, say, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.) but after a few years you could look at the international school scene. Then you could relocate to places your wife might like a lot better than China, for example the Philippines, South America, basically anywhere.

Think long and hard about staying in teaching, but upping your qualifications. You might say, "oh it's just more teaching" but the career options with a teaching license are really on a different track from the hagwon-style stuff you did, even if you're in TESOL. I have nothing against people who take that route and I was on that route myself, but I would say use that job experience (and your opportunities as an Australian with a fiscally-responsible wife) to get certified. Life for you and your children if you managed to get to a decent international school in 2-5 years time is going to be way better than if you're teaching ESL in Dalian or some such.

Teaching certification is likely to take 1-2 years. I managed to get it in 13 months here in USA. But then you have it, for life. For a man with a growing family, that sounds like the ticket. My $.02

[SledgeCleaver]

Also, don't forget that if you go the licensing route, you won't be in the position in 4-5 years where you have to move back to Australia and take a crap job again. You think "oh that's 5 years down the road" but once it happens, it's going to suck no matter how old and family-oriented you are. Also, if you're licensed in Australia, then obviously you could move back and work in public schools there. Being abroad and having a future in Australia don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[thatsforsure]

But please note, most international schools will only provide free tuition for one child per teacher. Only in the case of a husband-wife teaching duo can the family put two kids in for free.

At about US $30,000 per year, paying for even one kid is going to be prohibitively expensive even for an international-school teacher.

[AussieGus]

Thanks to all those who took the time to reply.

I have another question given that returning to study may not be possible. I think I have to go to China or I'll top myself. Even a 5 year respite would mean a lot to me and I'm prepared to go back to wiping demented bottoms in the nursing home on my return to Aus. To be honest Australia is too hard and I'll never cut it here in the field of education. I've really missed the boat and have NO work history in Australia, nor references. Australia is highly competitive and given the volume of immigrants arriving everyday who are desperate to stay here they can afford to be VERY picky. And they are! Being an Anglo Aussie is no help whatsoever and may even work against me due to the reverse racism which is rife. On the cusp of middle age one also needs to be realistic.

If, hypothetically, I chose to go to China next year with my Chinese wife and two children as things stand (with a BA, TESOL and 6 teaching experience in Korea), what could I expect?

What kind of job I would be likely to get, the salary range, the living conditions and my chances of creating a relatively comfortable life conducive to raising children, atleast for 4-5 years?

I would take around $15,000 AU with me. Is that sufficient? How difficult will it be to find a job at a 'hogwan' teaching adults given my situation?

Any opinions would be appreciated again.

[zactherat]

Why don't you move back to Korea?

Seems you like it there, and it's more of a known entity. You know the market, so you wouldn't have to spend a year or more finding a better position like you would in China. Those better positions probably pay about 15k per month, I'd say that's a pretty tight budget for supporting three dependents.

Of all the very many foreigners I have met in China, the only ones that manage to maintain a successful family unit are licensed intl school teachers. But even most intl school families I that I have known have left after 2 years or less, because they feel their kids are missing out.

Korea, Taiwan and Japan are surely all more favorable than Mainland China when you have family in tow. Cleaner, greener and better paying from the outset.

[AussieGus]

I did enjoy certain aspects of life in Korea and even learned to speak some hanguk mal. However I came to the inevitable conclusion that Korea would be a wonderful country if it wasn't full of xenophobic and intolerant Koreans. I've spent time in China as well, though far less, and found they're far nicer people than the majority of Koreans. I couldn't believe the level of overt racism in Korea and the famous Korean inferiority complex. They're are exceptions and I had some great Korean friends but the majority of Koreans have an instinctual dislike of and show hostility towards foreigners and people who are different or disadvantaged. They're not nice people to be blunt, devoid of compassion.

I agree it would be more comfortable life than China in many ways as the level of infrastructure, public services, sanitation and healthcare in Korea are nearly on par with a western country.

But how could I subject my Eurasian children to Korea? I have some good memories of Korea but the more seamier aspects of that country make my blood boil.

My wife wouldn't go to Korea anyway. Chinese are well aware that Koreans look down on them and they're not crazy about Koreans either.

[Babala]

I can understand your unhappiness in your current job. I do worry however that you will end up in China with a different set of issues. I fear that your wife may resent having to come back to China and the marriage may suffer.

Does your wife want to work here in China? You mentioned she studied nursing. She may be able to get a job in a foreign clinic here.

You could get into a company like Wallstreet which is strictly adults but you will work a lot of hours for the salary there.

[AussieGus]

Thanks Babala.

In truth I think my wife already resents me here because of my ineffectual Australian existence. It took me a long time to even get a job as a carer in a nursing home and even then its part time. I've spent a lot of time sitting around unemployed in Australia, depressed and apathetic. Nothing infuriates a Chinese woman more than a husband that is idle, even if its not by choice. I spent all of 2013 totally unemployed and welfare dependent. That DID NOT go down well. Atleast in China I would always be out working and that's gotta be better, doesn't it?