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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: Re: The Biggest TEFL Lie That Is Never Put In Writing... |
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| Juice wrote: |
| Anyone who tells you that you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China should be avoided like a one-eyed skanky hooker with AIDS. |
Such uncivil language has no place here.
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| The_Kong wrote: |
| When your filling out the online portion of an application for a foreign expert certificate there is even a section solely for TEFL/CELTA certificates. It may not be required everywhere in China, but it is required by any reputable school (in my opinion), unless the person has an actual degree in education. |
Accounts for what regulatory changes recruiters are responding, but what the OP reports (despite their inanity) is complicated. By what terms Cambridge/Oxford & Council Inc. establish their trainings as a de facto standard is of concern to many teachers such as Buckeye Bob.
The OP and LongShiKong's indignation (regardless of its expression) is not wholly without merit. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: Re: The Biggest TEFL Lie That Is Never Put In Writing... |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| Juice wrote: |
| Anyone who tells you that you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China should be avoided like a one-eyed skanky hooker with AIDS. |
Such uncivil language has no place here.
What
| The_Kong wrote: |
| When your filling out the online portion of an application for a foreign expert certificate there is even a section solely for TEFL/CELTA certificates. It may not be required everywhere in China, but it is required by any reputable school (in my opinion), unless the person has an actual degree in education. |
Accounts for what regulatory changes recruiters are responding, but what the OP reports (despite their inanity) is complicated. By what terms Cambridge/Oxford & Council Inc. establish their trainings as a de facto standard is of concern to many teachers such as Buckeye Bob.
The OP and LongShiKong's indignation (regardless of its expression) is not wholly without merit. |
Yeah...what buravirgil said...I think.
Pssst...can anyone tell me what the hell buravirgil is actually trying to say? |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:40 am Post subject: Re: The Biggest TEFL Lie That Is Never Put In Writing... |
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| The_Kong wrote: |
| Pssst...can anyone tell me what the hell buravirgil is actually trying to say? |
You might try specificity-- as in with what expression you're struggling, snarky. You are pretty quick to call out the efforts of NNESTs only to turn about and imply-- wut? My own sense of informal banter should be the rule.
The OP's simile for recruiters attempting to compel potential job candidates toward a TEFL certification is abominable. It's practically hate language.
But the issue is complicated. More than a few experienced teachers anticipate the annoyance of a rudimentary and nearly meaningless certification when, and if, they change jobs. Your post was the most informative and why I quoted it. Bud P. certainly understands the issues, as well as others, but I posted because dismissing the complaints of several posters as needing to "wake up" wasn't a deserved admonition or sufficient articulation of the issues.
IMHO
yo
edit: reviewing the formatting of my post, I can see interpreting my cite of "Juice" as a poor ad hoc lede while accusing your post as abominable.
apologies |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| A TEFL/TESOL/CELTA/whatever might not be required, but it's well worth the investment. My TESOL course was a joke, but has been accepted by everyone nonetheless. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Shanghai Noon wrote: |
| A TEFL/TESOL/CELTA/whatever might not be required, but it's well worth the investment. My TESOL course was a joke, but has been accepted by everyone nonetheless. |
[emphasis mine]
An eminently practical choice, and one I made as well when taking my second job abroad because I realized it was a human resources matter of ticking a box. And I resent it, as some posters to this thread have expressed via obscene similes and overly sized, contrastively colored text.
Because the market for certifications is bloated and inconsistent, potentially diminishing the value of an academic discpline. But certification/professional paths are not unique to ESL and the growth and demand for its practice, compounded by its itinerant character demands regulation. Yet teachers, like nurses, tend to be motivated by factors other than incentives. It's the lie of it that galls me, and I suspect others.
In the interest of full disclosure, I hold an English degree that is not Lit. or Creative Writing with nine semester hours of Linguistics earned as an undergrad of which six are a year long fellowship with an eight week practicum and presentation of a paper. Twenty years ago, simply having an English degree (typically Lit.) was a sufficient (and common) pedigree, but after an expansion of the "industry", demand was so high any degree was accepted. Now it's any degree + a cert. Thus my grousing about how intensive and pervasive (and I will argue pernicious) is Cambridge and Oxford's influence. Their regulation (set of standards) was barely acceptable in the form of CELTA (which has suffered since its expansion) to now border fraudulent. And I'll go further, NNESTs holding DELTAs can proffer organizational procedure through prescribed documentation and emphasize "institutional needs" all while barely literate in English (maybe anecdotal) because the personnel to manage teachers has only increased while class ratios tend to stay the same, which is to say maximized. |
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Buckeye Bob
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Let's keep it real simple here... Less than 1% of schools in China that hire foreign teacher actually ask for a TEFL certificate and there is absolutely, unequivocally no law in China that says you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China. Therefore whoever tells you otherwise is pulling the wool over your eyes in order to sell you an expensive TEFL course. Got it? |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Buckeye Bob wrote: |
| Let's keep it real simple here... Less than 1% of schools in China that hire foreign teacher actually ask for a TEFL certificate and there is absolutely, unequivocally no law in China that says you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China. Therefore whoever tells you otherwise is pulling the wool over your eyes in order to sell you an expensive TEFL course. Got it? |
I'd say its a bit higher than 1% even if you include the majority of TEFL jobs in China: YL and VYL (pre-Ks) teaching. Not sure about EF but WSE, LL, IH, and a few other franchises won't hire without one. |
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JimRoss
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I am currently on a chat in a different forum with someone who is teaching in China right now.
He has told me that due to the lack of English in China, many places will accept a TEFL/TESOL certificate as long as it looks official.
He also said the same was true for degree certificates.
He has told me a few things that are interesting but disturbing.
1) As long as a certificate looks official and has a stamp/seal it will be accepted
2) It is virtually guaranteed that no certificate verification of authenticity is done by the Chinese school
3) There is a huge racket in China and outside China making fake certificates using look-alike templates. They are often from someone else's genuine certificate that is copied and the name replaced.
4) There are no problems finding work and teaching in China with a fake certificate: TEFL, TESOL, Degree, Masters, etc.
Aside from all the ethical questions these allegations raise, are they true?
The Chinese are very strict about working illegally so if you are caught teaching with fake qualifications, are you classed as working illegally? Will you get fired, imprisoned, fined or deported? I base these two questions on an article I read in the South China Morning Post where it details China's policy on illegal workers. According to the article, the consequences of getting caught working illegally can be detention/imprisonment, fines and deportation. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| No recruiter or school that was interested in hiring me has ever NOT requested proof of qualification. |
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JimRoss
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Bud.
I've done a bit more checking and found that the only way to work legally in China is by getting a Z Visa. Teaching on any other visa means fines, detention until the fine is paid and then deportation at the illegal worker's expense.
The Z visa application process seems to have answered my questions.
The Z Visa is the only legal way to work in China.
Getting a Z Visa is an official government procedure so lying on the application form will invalidate it and give rise to working illegally.
Please correct me if my conclusions are incorrect. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Buckeye Bob wrote: |
| Let's keep it real simple here... Less than 1% of schools in China that hire foreign teacher actually ask for a TEFL certificate and there is absolutely, unequivocally no law in China that says you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China. Therefore whoever tells you otherwise is pulling the wool over your eyes in order to sell you an expensive TEFL course. Got it? |
Really???
One percent???
I gotta call BS on this. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Kong wrote: |
| Buckeye Bob wrote: |
| Let's keep it real simple here... Less than 1% of schools in China that hire foreign teacher actually ask for a TEFL certificate and there is absolutely, unequivocally no law in China that says you must have a TEFL certificate to teach in China. Therefore whoever tells you otherwise is pulling the wool over your eyes in order to sell you an expensive TEFL course. Got it? |
Really???
One percent???
I gotta call BS on this. |
Sorry for quoting my own post but I figured I'd do a little random test here to see just how inaccurate the 1% figure quoted above was.
As a quick and random sample I clicked on the first twenty job ads that appeared on Daves ESL cafe.
1) Posted By: Gold Star TEFL Recruitment <[email protected]>
-TEFL certificate preferred but not required (No TEFL? We recommend INTESOL www.GoldStarTeachers.com/INTESOL)
2) Posted By: CITA <[email protected]>
3¡¢TEFL & TESOL or equivalent certificates holder preferred.
3) Posted By: Teach to Travel Ltd <[email protected]>
TESOL/TEFL certificate (must have completed at least 100 hours before June, 2014)
4) Posted By: Best Learning <[email protected]>
- Candidates without bachelor degree must have TESO/TESL/TEFL certificate or 2+ years teaching experience
5)Posted By: DD Dragon English School <[email protected]>
In addition, we provide new teachers with free and comprehensive TEFL training prior to commencing teaching at DD Dragon (there's an online component, as well as in-classroom training in Shanghai).
6) Posted By: Eastland Recruiting <[email protected]>
• 120 hour TEFL certificate or CELTA. If you don’t have a TEFL, we can recommend a great course! They offer our teachers a 10% discount off their already low price. Take advantage of the best course we know of for the price: Best TEFL course for China
7)Posted By: Beijing China New International Culture Exchange Center <[email protected]>
Certificate: TESOL /TEFL certificate is highly recommended
8)Posted By: China Connection Education Service <[email protected]>
4. Hold at least a Bachelor degree + TEFL cert.
9）Posted By: EF English First
TEFL/ CELTA/ TESOL certificate (EF Sponsorship available)
10)Posted By: Happy Goal Kids English of Web International <[email protected]>
TEFL certificate (No TEFL? We recommend INTESOL)
11)Posted By: Alpha International Education <[email protected]>
TESOL/TEFL certificate
12) Posted By: Zibo Experimental High School <[email protected]>
No mention of needing a TEFL
13) Posted By: Web International English <[email protected]>
- TEFL/TESOL/CELTA Certificate (120 hours)
14) Posted By: Web International English <[email protected]>
TEFL/TESOL/CELTA certificate
15)Posted By: Baiyilin Children's Day Care Center <[email protected]>
TESOL/TEFL Certificate preferred or with over 2
years teaching experience
16) Posted By: ESL Suite
TEFL/CELTA certificate preferred
17)Posted By: Expertise Education <[email protected]>
* TEFL certification
18)Posted By: 121 English School <[email protected]>
2. TESOL/TEFL/CELTA teaching certificate preferred but not essential
19)Posted By: Shanghai Yulun Education Group <[email protected]>
• TEFL/TESOL/CELTA Certification (or other equivalent level of cert.)
20)Posted By: Teach in Inner Mongolia <[email protected]>
No mention of needing a TEFL
A little higher than 1% wouldn't you say Buckeye Juice. |
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Buckeye Bob
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you can read as well as I can Kong so stop twisting words around. You claimed on page one that "many schools require tefl certificates" Yet the sample ads that you cherry-picked for the sake of winning your argument mostly say "Tefl certificate preferred". There is a BIG difference between "required" and "preferred" Kong, and in any case what IS REQUIRED is a bachelor's degree, and no tefl certificate will replace that degree. You make me wonder if you are hawking tefl courses somewhere by playing these word games my friend. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Buckeye Bob wrote: |
| I think you can read as well as I can Kong so stop twisting words around. You claimed on page one that "many schools require tefl certificates" Yet the sample ads that you cherry-picked for the sake of winning your argument mostly say "Tefl certificate preferred". There is a BIG difference between "required" and "preferred" Kong, and in any case what IS REQUIRED is a bachelor's degree, and no tefl certificate will replace that degree. You make me wonder if you are hawking tefl courses somewhere by playing these word games my friend. |
Not cherry-picked at all, simply the first twenty results that came up on Daves China job boards, don't believe me go look for yourself They are quite literally the first twenty jobs that appear. Seriously, go look right now, I'm not lying.
I never said a TEFL was required throughout China, I said it should be, I said respectable schools should enforce that policy, but I never said it is required nation wide.
And yes, you caught me, I am hawking a TEFL course, well found out Batman, you truly are the greatest detective.
Of course I've never mentioned the TEFL course I'm apparently hawking in any way, but you know, whatever.
So...1% eh? I noticed you kind of avoided addressing that...coincidence?
Edit: I'm not your friend, don't call me your friend, I keep company with people who know how to read. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| JimRoss wrote: |
| 3) There is a huge racket in China and outside .... |
As you scroll through mod threads to get to member threads, have you noticed the one forbidding even the mention of this practice? Beware! |
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