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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="nomad soul"]
| lugubregondola wrote: |
But this isn't the appropriate thread for discussing authentications since the OP doesn't have a degree.  |
As others on here have said, you DON't need a degree to teach in china, all you need to be is a native speaker who is white and has a pulse.  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| lugubregondola wrote: |
What does the university have to do that for? What's the point of a notary then if the university get involved?
....
Plus there's plenty of online universities from the USA any American can "get" a degree from in a couple of weeks. |
In the US, the registrar's office administers all student records including grades, courses attended, etc., and of course, issues diplomas. So it makes sense that the process starts there. Additionally, the US Dept of Education maintains an online database of valid universities as well as one for bogus entities. (The latter aren't likely to provide an affidavit or official transcripts of all coursework completed.) Foreign consulates are likely to access that info when approving visa applications.
Anyway, you seem obsessed about degree authentications/attestations and fake documents. Give it a rest; otherwise, others will suspect your academic credetial isn't legit. |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Not really, I was just pointing out that some notaries don't check properly in the UK and that the registrar doesn't get involved it's up to the notary to contact the registrar which some don't bother doing for some reason.
for Korea, I had to supply a notarised degree and apostille it and I also had to give the Korean embassy in London the name address, website and phone number of my uni so they could check before issuing me with an E2 visa which they did. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| lugubregondola wrote: |
| As others on here have said, you DON't need a degree to teach in china, all you need to be is a native speaker who is white and has a pulse. |
Yep, an overwhelming number of posters on this thread have stated the OP should head on over to China without a degree. No problems, no worries, hakuna matata!  |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Additionally, the US Dept of Education maintains an online database of valid universities as well as one for bogus entities. (The latter aren't likely to provide an affidavit or official transcripts of all coursework completed.) Foreign consulates are likely to access that info when approving visa applications.
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1. NO legitimate school will issue student transcripts to anyone except the student unless the student pays the registrar for the transcripts and directs the registrar to send the transcripts to the school. Several years ago, an American journalist's background was called into question and the publisher got the local DA to file a subpoena to force the Dean of Students at the university to release the records of the journalist.
2. A company called Verify will send an employer confirmation of a student having attended a given school and will verify whether he has graduated or not. It will not give any other information.
3. You are correct. Unless something has changed during the past twenty years, no government database exists that holds student grades, so none can release student transcript records. |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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In the UK we have data protection laws so consulates wouldn't be able to just check an online database without first getting permission from the owner of the records (the student) to do so. There aren't any online databases in the UK anyway, the universities solely maintain student records.
This is why when you attest your credentials at the SACB (Saudi consulate) you are required to fill in a form ALLOWING the consulate to get hold of your records. I don't know any other consulate in the world who does this.
Therefore what with notaries not checking and consulates not asking for permission to check, someone who is hell bent on gaining employment abroad possibly could do so. Obviously not so in the US where you have databases as you say and the state authenticates the degrees. An American could still say he studied in the UK I suppose though and try that way to get a job. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Additionally, the US Dept of Education maintains an online database of valid universities as well as one for bogus entities. (The latter aren't likely to provide an affidavit or official transcripts of all coursework completed.) Foreign consulates are likely to access that info when approving visa applications. |
1. NO legitimate school will issue student transcripts to anyone except the student unless the student pays the registrar for the transcripts and directs the registrar to send the transcripts to the school. Several years ago, an American journalist's background was called into question and the publisher got the local DA to file a subpoena to force the Dean of Students at the university to release the records of the journalist.
2. A company called Verify will send an employer confirmation of a student having attended a given school and will verify whether he has graduated or not. It will not give any other information.
3. You are correct. Unless something has changed during the past twenty years, no government database exists that holds student grades, so none can release student transcript records. |
Per my previous response, if you click on the link I provided, it's the US govt's database of accredited universities; it does not include student data.
The individual universities are the official record keepers of student grades, conferral dates, coursework completed/enrolled in, attendance dates, yada yada. Moreover, the US Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) protects the student's academic records; it takes his/her signed permission to have this info released from the university registrar's office to another party (e.g., employers, background check companies, consulates, etc.). DegreeVerify is a national clearinghouse that verifies enrollment and degree conferral. It's limited but is another layer that confirms the legitimacy of a degree. Anyway, having verification come directly from the source (i.e., the uni registrar) is ideal in terms of authentication, which is why many state Secretaries of State require this route. |
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TerryDesmond
Joined: 16 Feb 2016
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Teaching in China no degree |
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| nicolemoffat wrote: |
Hi everyone,
I'm hoping some of you will be able to help me here, I'm wanting to know whether or not I'm able to legally teach in China without a degree. |
Hi Nicole,
I'll be starting work in Xi'an in a couple of weeks without a degree, but I have obtained a legit working z visa from the visa application centre in London. EF sent me a working permit issued by SAFEA as well as a letter of invitation which is what's required to get a z visa. Like you, I only have a tefl qualification and had some teaching experience too (in India).
Prior to accepting the job, I did some research regarding whether it was possible and legal to work in China without a degree and had come across this - http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/work/esl/articles/teaching-english-in-china-is-degree-work-visa-needed.shtml
"The SAFEA requirements state that a "foreign educational expert should hold a minimum of a bachelor's degree and more than two years of experience." As the regulation uses the Chinese character for the word "should," instead of “must,” there has been a great deal of "flexible" interpretation across provinces regarding the minimum educational requirement over the years. While a bachelor's degree is generally regarded as the minimum educational requirement to legally teach in China, this currently appears to be the exception instead of the rule."
I think then, it's the employers or local officials discretion whether they'd hire you based on your qualifications as opposed to being a rule that's enforced upon them. However, it's as you say: there's conflicting information out there.
Apply for work and during any interview, ask them if they'll provide you a working z visa prior to going. If yes, it should be OK, if not, then look elsewhere. Just have your wits about you. Do expect a lower salary though! |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
The individual universities are the official record keepers of student grades, conferral dates, coursework completed/enrolled in, attendance dates, yada yada. Moreover, the US Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) protects the student's academic records; it takes his/her signed permission to have this info released from the university registrar's office to another party (e.g., employers, background check companies, consulates, etc.). DegreeVerify is a national clearinghouse that verifies enrollment and degree conferral. It's limited but is another layer that confirms the legitimacy of a degree. Anyway, having verification come directly from the source (i.e., the uni registrar) is ideal in terms of authentication, which is why many state Secretaries of State require this route. |
That's all fine and dandy, but Chinese consulates don't want your degree authenticated by the university that issued it. Belford University of Life Experiences will attest to the fact that it issued a degree. What the Chinese government wants is for at least one arm of the U.S. government to authenticate the degree (the UK may have different requirements):
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/gzrz/rzcx/
They way that we think it should be and the way it is are two different things. |
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creeper1
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 481
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Like the previous post shows for the guy without a degree getting a legit z visa for EF, requirements are just a guide.
Rules are bent often using connections.
Also being in a more undesirable place probably means rules are bent more.
No degree, non native speaker
In reality none of these really present a barrier. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
That's all fine and dandy, but Chinese consulates don't want your degree authenticated by the university that issued it. Belford University of Life Experiences will attest to the fact that it issued a degree. What the Chinese government wants is for at least one arm of the U.S. government to authenticate the degree (the UK may have different requirements):
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/gzrz/rzcx/
They way that we think it should be and the way it is are two different things. |
The problem with your flawed line of thinking is that the US government would have to rely on the university for student info and grades anyway. In other words, the registrar is still the source of those records and not the federal government. (It's also not a good use of the federal government's time.) Additionally, the purpose of authentication is to confirm the job/visa applicant actually graduated with X degree from X university as stated on his/her CV and/or visa application -- even if that ends up being Dewey Cheatham and Howe University of the Universe. So yeah, the process starts with the university registrar and works its way on up through the state and fed levels.
That said, you're missing the point --- it's the responsibility of employers to decide whether to hire folks with 'degrees' from suspect universities, and that's where the fed's accreditation database on tertiary institutions in the US is invaluable. Besides, the job seeker with a cheesy BA takes a huge gamble, while everyone else has nothing to worry about. In fact, there have been a couple of such situations posted on the Saudi forum, except both job seekers had degrees from valid, accredited US universities. One job candidate stated his degree didn't pass muster with the Saudi education ministry because he graduated from a "liberal, hippie university," while the other poster couldn't get his degree authenticated for an employment visa because it was from a private, conservative Christian university. So, some employers and consulates do make that type of decision. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Postings regarding fake degrees on this site cause members to become ex-members and threads locked or removed from the public board.
It happens.
Really, it does. |
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