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The debate about fish(es)
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juststeven



Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twisting In The Wind,
Surely, you must be joking! I know you only have a 'distance' degree from Indiana, (what was it, Philosophy or Comparative Religious Studies or probably Humanities/Liberal Arts) but you must know the plural of a noun! Laughing Laughing
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carnac



Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 310
Location: in my village in Oman ;-)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correctly, more than one of the same kind of fish (17guppies), the plural is fish. More than one of different kinds of fish (a shark, a tuna, a carp and a grouper) the plural is fishes.

What's the difference between a lawyer and a carp?
One's a bottom-dwelling scumsucker.
The other's a fish.
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Fishes" is the proper English plural form of "fish" that biologists use when speaking about two or more fish species, as in "There are over 25,000 fishes in the world" (meaning that there are over 25,000 fish species in the world). When speaking of two or more individual fish organisms, then the word "fish" is used, as in "There are several million fish in the species Gadus morhua" (meaning that G. morhua comprises several million individuals). To see both in action, consider the statement "There are twelve fish in this aquarium, representing five fishes" (meaning that the aquarium contains twelve individuals, some of the same species and some of different species, for a total of five species).


from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish

Yeah. I love my job.
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Brickerage



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 431
Location: Shen Yang

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juststeven wrote:
Twisting In The Wind,
Surely, you must be joking! I know you only have a 'distance' degree from Indiana, (what was it, Philosophy or Comparative Religious Studies or probably Humanities/Liberal Arts) but you must know the plural of a noun! Laughing Laughing


The question here isn't about someones education, which seems a bit strange that it would be brought up here, talking about fish. Or in this case a computer mouse... which is known world-wide that we all call them mices....HELLO! Cool
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I see this confusion a lot with words like curriculum, virus, data, formula. Few people I know will use what I thought were the correct plural forms for these. And yet...


Generally words introduced into English in the last sixty years or so take the standard English plurals.

It is almost never wrong to use the 's' plural in English, although I personally would always say curricula and formulae. (On the other hand I would always talk about computer viruses, and consider 'virii' to be an idiotic affectation).

Data is a non-count noun, and takes a singular verb like all non-count nouns. Media is best considered the same; incidentally we often use the singular as in phrases such as "through the medium of television" or "the print medium" or of course "The medium is the message".

The plural of 'computer mouse' is 'computer mice', except in 'Tom and Jerry' cartoons.
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Ben Round de Bloc



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Jones wrote:
The plural of 'computer mouse' is 'computer mice', except in 'Tom and Jerry' cartoons.

I'm afraid not everyone is in complete agreement on that one.
Quote:
It is called a mouse primarily because the cord on early models resembled the rodent's tail, and also because the motion of the pointer on the screen can be mouselike. In popular usage, the plural can be either mice or mouses.

From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_mouse
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To quote for alt.usage
Quote:
Markus Laker reports from the U.K.: "In the early eighties, a
few people did selfconsciously say 'mouses', but the traditional
plural 'mice' gained ground rapidly and is now more or less
universal here."


So it's mice except in Tom and Jeryy cartoons and the USA. But waitt - same place ain't it :)
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homersimpson



Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both "fishes" and "mice" are correct usage.

Main Entry: 1fish
Pronunciation: 'fish
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fish or fish�es
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English fisc; akin to Old High German fisc fish, Latin piscis
1 a : an aquatic animal -- usually used in combination <starfish> <cuttlefish> b : any of numerous cold-blooded strictly aquatic craniate vertebrates that include the bony fishes and usually the cartilaginous and jawless fishes and that have typically an elongated somewhat spindle-shaped body terminating in a broad caudal fin, limbs in the form of fins when present at all, and a 2-chambered heart by which blood is sent through thoracic gills to be oxygenated


Main Entry: 1mouse
Pronunciation: 'maus
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mice /'mIs/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English mus; akin to Old High German mus mouse, Latin mus, Greek mys mouse, muscle
1 : any of numerous small rodents (as of the genus Mus) with pointed snout, rather small ears, elongated body, and slender tail
2 : a timid person
3 : a dark-colored swelling caused by a blow; specifically : BLACK EYE
4 : a small mobile manual device that controls movement of the cursor and selection of functions on a computer display
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homersimpson



Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I forgot to add, apparently for us humans there is an exception:

Main Entry: 1peo�ple
Pronunciation: 'pE-p&l
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural people
Etymology: Middle English peple, from Old French peuple, from Latin populus
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of persons <salespeople>
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special class <disputes between the people and the nobles> -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a politically organized group
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carnac



Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 310
Location: in my village in Oman ;-)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, thanks to Steven Pinker for bringing this up, the plural of Walkman?

And, the plural of syllabus? (Who, I wonder, will respond "syllabi"?)

Who but English teachers, huh?
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll use syllabi simply because syllabuses sounds like I'm having a fit when s-s-s-saying it.
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hobo



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And try saying it with a lisp. Confused
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thyllabutheth? That's too cruel.
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merlin



Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 582
Location: Somewhere between Camelot and NeverNeverLand

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plural of the thing attached to your computer is mouses
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxmouses.html
http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=104582&catId=100249&tid=100008&p=1
This is merely business savvy, folks. A google search of cheap mice brings up pet shops while cheap mouses brings up the desired product. In the end online suppliers refusing to use the form mouses will become extinct.
The plural of walkman is walkmans.
http://www.ogormans.co.uk/sony2.htm
(of course there are more links but why bother)
I don't speak with a lisp or stutter but I still refuse to say "syllabusses", much less put such an ugly word on my resume/CV.
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carnac



Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 310
Location: in my village in Oman ;-)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What are the plurals of 'octopus', 'hippopotamus', 'syllabus'?


English words of Latin or Greek origin have rather unpredictable plurals, and each one usually depends on how well established that particular word is. It may also depend on whether the Latin or Greek form of the plural is either easily recognizable or pleasant to the speaker of English.

Although it is often supposed that octopi is the 'correct' plural of octopus, and it has been in use for longer than the usual Anglicized plural octopuses, it in fact originates as an error. Octopus is not a simple Latin word of the second declension, but a Latinized form of the Greek word oktopous, and its 'correct' plural would logically be octopodes.

Other words ending in -us show a very varied pattern. Like octopi, the plural hippopotami is now generally taken to be either funny or absurdly pedantic, and the usual plural is hippopotamuses. Common usage appears to indicate a slight preference for termini rather than terminuses, but syllabuses rather than syllabi.(emphasis added) Other usual forms include cacti and gladioli, and our files at the dictionary department show scarcely any examples of nucleuses or funguses. (Omnibi is simply a joke, and quite ungrammatical in Latin!)

Among words ending in -um it seems worth drawing attention to the word curricula, plural of curriculum, and warning against confusion with the adjective curricular (as in extra-curricular).
End quote

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/plurals?view=uk
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