Job Discussion Forums

[Minhang Oz]

The originator of this thread has probably given up reading it in bewilderment. But to help you guys out, here's one set of stats.
Numbers are in millions, although some people might have died since they were done.
Mandarin Chinese 836
Hindi 333
Spanish 332 [yes, I'm surprised too]
English 322
Bengali 189
Arabic 186
Russian 170
Portugese 170
French is nowhere, with 72, probably behind Cantonese. Only they believe their language is important.
M. Oz No Ph.D required.

[kimo]

Minhang, I would like to know where the math came from. Let's look at the English speaking world in millions. Though I admittedly am only guessing at the numbers and have not excluded immigrants, I believe there are more native English speakers than your figures show.

USA 280
UK 60
Ireland 3
Australia 19
Canada 20
New Zealand 3
S. Africa 5
Jamaica/Belize/
Guyana/other
Carribean
Region Lands 15

Total 405 (Totally Unscientific)

Perhaps, one of you research heads might want to pull the actual numbers.

[jevon]

From the CIA Factbook 2002:

USA: 280,562,489 (July 2002 est.)
UK: 59,778,002 (July 2002 est.)
Eire: 3,883,159 (July 2002 est.)
Aussies: 19,546,792 (July 2002 est.)
Canuck: 31,902,268 (July 2002 est.), but only 54% are English speakers
-14,675,043
Kiwis: 3,908,037 (July 2002 est.)
S.Africa: 40,583,611
-10,000,000 maybe
_____________________
415,489,315

China: 1,284,303,705
-128,430,371
Singapore: 4,452,732
-1,113,183
_________________________
1,159,212,883

India (for Hindi): 313,753,568
Bangladesh (Bengali): 133,376,684

I may be off with making 10% of China speak Mandarin, it may very well be more like 20%, but, regardless, all of M. Oz's numbers are old but still valid. My numbers for Hindi differ, but I didn't add in Pakistan's 3% minority or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka, because I didn't want to. With fertility rates in mind, though, I'm sure English is falling behind. Figure in secondary languages, and I'd put English a lot closer to Chinese (curious as to whether it would match or pass).

[Minhang Oz]

I found these figures on a site called www.al-bab.com I'm sure every resource you look at will give different figures, but its the ranking that's the key factor here. If you look at the NESB populations of the major English speaking migrant taking nations, it would have to cut their total native speakers back by many millions- its certainly the case in Australia. And while most English speakers of whatever dialect can communicate, apparently many Arabic dialects are as mutually unintelligible as, say, Shanghaihua is to a Hunan [or Beijing] native.

[Bertrand]

[Bertrand]

[Bertrand]

[Minhang Oz]

I think you've asked me the same question twice, but I'll answer it once. I understand "dialect" to mean a language variety used by, and characteristic of, a particular social group. What are your definitions of "pedant" and "pretentious"? A rhetorical question only.

[Roger]

To me, a dialect is a variant of a language that is spoken only, not written. While you can perhaps write a few dialects - Texan, Irish-English, Aussie English, if you like - they are not unintelligible to the speaker of the standard variety. That is because syntax and grammar are largely identical. It is the pronunciation and other idiosyncrasies that differ. THat is why Mandarin is a language, but Cantonese and Hunanese are mere dialects! Written, they are virtually identical to Mandarin.
It goes without saying that the longer a dialect is tolerated the farther down the road it goes towards becoming a full-fledged language. The Chinese government has always been wary of dialect developments and has been encouraging Chinese to speak Mandarin. You can often see the odd sign - in ENGLISH (sic!) "please, speak Mandarin" (Mandarin). And, overhearing some of my Cantonese-speaking little ones, I often catch someone telling them to "shuo putonghua!"
Arabic dialects are wildly different from one another, and here you can clearly see that the decision whether a language is a dialect or a language is a political one. There is no standard Arabic except in writing, and since Arabic does not use signs to symbolise vowels the words can be pronounced with A or U, I or O, as the local vernacular may deem it right!

[boxcarwilly]

I just wanted to say "thanks" to everyone who has contributed. I did not expect this thread to get this long or take its many turns but it has been interesting reading. I will honor your efforts by following up on your suggestions and in the future should be able to give back with the information I have learned.

[yaco]

Bertrand, I am not referring to the first language.

I am referring to the total number of people who can speak a language - it is irrelevant whether it is their first or tenth language.

Why don't Chinese learn Hindi ? Because although over 1 billion people speak this language, it is not widely spoken out of India.

It is a fact of life that English is the number one language for commerce, business etc throughout the world.

[Bertrand]

[yaco]

Bertrand, I am merely referring to the most commonly spoken languages throughout the world.

I used Hindi as an example or I could you Mandarin/Chinese as two countries which have massive populations but the spread of the language outside their country of origin is limited.

[Minhang Oz]

When I used the word "dialect", Bertrand asked me:
"What do you mean by dialect? What linguistic definition are you using?"

Later in the same thread though, he was quite happy to use the same word without any qualification.

"What you refer to as 'Hindi' (which is at least 30 or 40 different dialects)...."

Ignoring the redundancy of "different" in this quotation, are there different rules depending which side of the Hong Kong border you're on, or this just a double standard born from a feeling of superiority? After all, if we earn less, we couldn't possibly be intellectually equal, or, dare I suggest, superior to the poster concerned.

[Bertrand]