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[JezzaYouBeauty!!]

Japanese culture.

I like history. I studied Japanese society & culture at University. I like to read books and watch docos.

I have read, seen and heard all the negative stuff about Japan. And in Korea, times a million.

I don't know the answer to this topic. Just hope for discussion.

I was looking at stuff on the web....and this...seemed to sum up the....vibe....I am feeling in Japan.....maybe.

"Many Japanese expats here in the States often speak of the "suffocating" feeling of being in Japan, but I've never heard it from a non-Japanese. This feeling has nothing to do with the fact that Japan is a small country or that you have to live in a tiny closet apartment. Rather, it is to do with the culture, such as social expectations, notions of shame, conformity, and honor. I would imagine that, for a foreigner to feel this sense of suffocation, he/she would have to have a deep understanding of the social fabric of Japan. The following is an interesting essay on this subject written by an American artist in Virginia, USA."

http://www.traces.ws/writings/gambatte.htm

Anyhow.....this is from a funny little website called http://www.alllooksame.com/.

Take the test. I got 9 out of 18.

[markle]

thanks for the links, finally some intelligent discourse.

as for gamabate article well I just got an email from a friend back home dealing with a corporate job, two young kids, a mortgage and a depressed husband. The kind of things the author was talking about are not unique to Japan, the language and cicumstances are but they are a symtoms of a post industrial society that exist from here to Europe to the US to New Zealand, and while Japan may not be dealing with as well no society has been successful either, just varying degrees of failure and apathy. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be.
Still it's a much more important problem than all this 'racism' cokamamie

PS pls bring back the pizza. John Laws shoits me to tears.

[SEndrigo]

I think that "suffocation" is less for the foreigners, but I'm sure people who have lived here a long time and are familiar with Japanese culture feel it more than people who have just arrived.

The suffocation doesn't bother me, what bothers me is the sea of blank, emotionless faces I encounter when I step onto a train ar walk on the street.

For all of their social gains and financial success, most Japanese people, it seems to me, are utterly miserable and feel more impoverished than people from less successful countries !

For me it is a quality of life issue....yes, there are many good things about Tokyo and many nice places, but it seems like no one can really enjoy things because they're working all the bloody time.

Everyone seems to be focused on the new fashions, buying a new car, or going drinking with co-workers. Not a healthy lifestyle if you ask me.

All of this stuff - safe and clean streets, high standard of living, good healthcare, fantastic cuisine, etc, doesnt seem to matter to people since all they do is work and then return to their rabbit hutch apartments. There's not much to enjoy if you're stuck in the office day and night, and we haven't yet mentioned the rigid social customs that they're expected to conform to.

What would it take for them to break free from all of this?

[JimDunlop2]

Well, it's all very interesting from a foreigner's perspective. I don't feel suffocated at all. It's the way I live my life in Japan. In fact, I'm probably more active here than I ever was back home. I study kung-fu three times a week, my wife goes to the gym. I also have been studying tea ceremony for the past two years. On Fridays I have Japanese lessons. We go out for supper a few times a week, sometimes with friends and sometimes alone. We go to church on Saturday evenings and frequently on Sunday we take day trips.

Also, we've been known to take in a concert, ballet, theatre play, movie from time to time, and we love exploring new restaurants -- especially ethnic ones. We also love to travel. I love to take trips through the countryside on my motorcycle, and if the weather's nice we go out to the coast and do some surfing and bodyboarding.

I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd, because of all the Japanese friends we've made, almost none of them have ever travelled outside of Japan, and the ones that have, it was only once -- for a week, to an English-speaking country. Other than that, based on the conversations we've had, none of them have ever seen a theatre play (outside of their high school festivals) or a ballet, opera, concert, etc. They go to the movies once every two or three months (on cheap night) and go out for supper with friends once a month. Their weekend is usually spent at home, watching TV, doing housework and going shopping. They may have had hobbies, but only "a long time ago" when they were young and had more time to pursue them.

For example, the average reply I receive from anyone who learns that I do tea ceremony on a regular basis is:

"Sugoi! I do tea ceremony too."
"Really? How often do you go?"
"Oh... well, um.. it's actually been a long time since i went."
"That's too bad. About once a month then?"
"Well, actually I haven't done it for about 10 years... Not since I was in the university tea club anyway."

I'd say that many Japanese people try to have some kind of hobby -- something they can "get away" to do once a week for an hour. So when I used to teach "eikaiwa" the conversations I had with the students were among the most boring I've ever conducted with adults. Outside of work and family, English lessons were IT. YOU were their source of amusement and their escape from daily life for the week.... And because they had no time for other hobbies outside of weekly Japanese lessons, talking about their job and family quickly became dull. As a result, forget talking about hobbies, sports or interests. They have no time for that stuff because they're taking English lessons. I once had a student who was a cucumber farmer. His hobbies involved: attending a weekly English class, drinking shochu and watching movies on TV with his wife and fishing for squid on the coast one weekend every two months. Eventually he dropped my class because he became interested in learning Portuguese instead of English so he changed his hobbies around a bit...

Again, maybe I hang out with the wrong people, but I can't help but think that the above lifestyle is a fairly common/average one for many Japanese people. No wonder then that when they travel and live outside their own country they lose their feeling of "suffocation."

As for SEndrigo's question: I haven't the foggiest what it would take to break free from this. Occasionally I meet someone who doesn't fit the mold -- but that's rare. I know a Japanese gal who sports a beautiful spiral perm, wears interesting clothes, and dances capoerra (a traditional Brazilian type of dance). She also travels. A lot. She's been to Mongolia, Peru, and gone on the "Peace Boat." And that's just this past year. Her best friend works as a circus clown and makes baloon animals for a living... It's no wonder that she has very few Japanese friends and feels that she cannot relate to anyone around here.

As a matter of fact, the more I think about this, and as I'm writing this, I'm thinking of more and more people I know/have gotten to know.... A Japanese fellow I know has a hobby of importing/restoring classic American cars. He travels to California on a regular basis and brings back what he likes. The other day I saw him in a 1926 roadster. Great guy.... I also don't see him around too many Japanese peers. He usually hangs out with the ex-pats.

I also know a Japanese gal who studied in an American university. Spent lots of time in several cities. Her hobbies involve travelling to those places as often as budget allows, writing letters and calling her American friends, hanging out with expats, and working out at the gym several times a week. She has no (or few) close Japanese friends, and can't wait until her next flight back to the U.S. She tends to wear American-brand clothing, wears stars & stripes jewelry and accesorries, and also bemoans the fact that she feels so clausterphobic in Japan.... Her English is also quite fluent. Someone please get her a green card already!

I agree with SEndrigo. Quality of life is important. I wonder, how many Japanese, given a survey, feel like they have a quality lifestyle...

[JimDunlop2]

BTW, I second markle's vote. Bring back the pizza, Jezza. Who the heck is this "John" you have a picture of? Is he a politician or something?

[6810]

When I first cam to Japan, I felt utterly suffocated. But the longer I have lived here and the more fluent I have become in Japanese the walls and limitations have dissolved.

To me, post-culture shock etc, I think that the Japanese you describe Jim are fundamentally "chigau". What I mean is, in a society that values conformity there seems to be a real affection for being ordinary. When my wife and I discussed marriage, I said - no way - everyone that gets married becomes so mediocre. Just look at our neighbours..."

She said "Yeah, but we don't have to do it that way."

I was sold.

Furthermore to Jim, I worked at an eikaiwa last night for the first time in 3 years (currently in an elementary school). It was total flashback - I never knew at the time how boring those conversations were and I never knew the reason (I can't figure it out - people shell out all this dough for lessons and come in complaining they are tired etc). Nice story.

[Mark]

Yo Jezza,

I think I'll give you some props (as the kids now say) for posting up some interesting topics for discussion.

The topic you're posting about is a pretty tough one. I agree with much of what's in the essay as well as what others have said so far on this topic.

The bottom line is that quality of life is horrible in Japan. People work all the time and live in these tiny little apartments with their families. Then they get married and live in a tiny apartment with their spouse that they hardly ever see.

Put it this way, how many non-Japanese have you met who would like to stay here and live like a Japanese person? I haven't met any. A grand total of zero. When I was in Canada, I met lots of Japanese and almost all of them wanted to stay and were not looking forward to going back to Japan.

Another thing to note, many Japanese have no idea that life is different in other countries. Most of the people who've lived abroad say that before they left Japan, they didn't understand how different life could be. I imagine that the average salaryman has never really thought about how he lives his life and whether it could be better. Working 10-12 hours a day is just normal and everybody does it. End of story.

Part of it depends where you live. Sendrigo mentioned the sea of blank faces, and that really gets to me too. I don't know if it's different in other places, but it's overwhelming in Tokyo. People look like life has just beaten the vitality out of them. It's weird because younger people seem quite animated and whatnot, but after a few years of the corporate grind, they're just destroyed.

As for the boring eikaiwa conversations, yeah, that's totally it. I can't for the life of me understand why people would pay so much money to take conversation lessons when they have no desire to actually say anything. Eikaiwa teaching is not teaching, it's using every trick in the book to get people to say something. Anything. Sometimes I find myself thinking, "Just say Words! Any words!" It's amazing and ridiculous.

I had a 50 year old student say his hobby was golf and he went golfing every two months. Pretty typical. I asked him if he did anything else and he said he played guitar. Cool, I thought. But he played it in university and hadn't touched it since.

But, then again, I didn't really talk to office-worker types back home. Maybe they're equally boring.

But I will point out that whenever I have students from other parts of Japan, it's not so bad. When the group is entirely composed of people who aren't from Tokyo, it's relatively easy and fun.

I personally have come to believe that there's something terribly wrong with this city. You'd think that this many people in a relatively small space would produce an amazing amount of creativity, vitality and whatnot. But it doesn't. I've never been anywhere where I felt less creativity in the air. I can't explain it, but something feels wrong to me.

That being said, there are certainly cool Japanese people, but they function outside the mainstream and they often don't take eikaiwa lessons, although they sometimes do. It takes a lot of work to find these people, though, because as a teacher, you probably won't encounter them in your daily life.

[Mark]

I should add that, despite all this, I enjoy living in Japan and I've met a lot of really cool Japanese people. I think that virtually all of Japan's problems would be solved if they just collectively decided to stop working at 6. The rest of the problems could be solved by adopting policies aimed at preventing the concentration of business into small areas in order to prevent the ridiculous congestion and long commutes.

[6810]

An old man at Buddhist cooking school last month reflected to me on pre-ww2 Japan.

He said Japan was not unlike what North Korea is today in the build up to war (from Manchuria right through to surrender, around 15 years or more). Icon worship, harsh laws, strictly structured caste system with no/very little vertical movement, peasants, unable to leave, forced to live their whole lives in parochial backwaters, restrictions on "foreign" ideas and products and a brutal military backbone ensuring the whole thing was glued together through violence, exploitation, corruption and coercion.

I said - wow. Never thought of like that before.

He said - yeah, the Japanese screwed up and because of that period a lot of worthwhile cultural heritage was lost. It does no good to point fingers.

I said - cool.

So why post here? I think that the culture of pre-war Japan was never totally extinguished and lives on in various guises. Obviously this is not true of everyone everywhere, but the echoes and aftershocks are still with all of us walking on Japan.

And it is interesting this paradox of prosperity and living conditions. Frequently my Japanese friends tell me they have plenty of money, but no time or energy. And if they do do something, then they inevitably do it in the great money sucking vortex of Japan.

To me it doesn't balance - I'll take less money and a spacious, happy life. But I think by and large, this is not an option for Japanese in Japan - the land of perserverance and conformity.

But, as we all know, things won't change until people want change.

[SEndrigo]

Hey Mark,

I agree wholeheartedly, they all should stop working at 6 pm, or earlier even....and adopt some kind of maximum working hours policy.

I've mentioned this to some Japanese people who have told me "Well if we did that, Japan's economy wouldn't be competitive anymore"

I think that's rubbish....do you really think most of these salarymen are actually WORKING for the entire 80 hours? At least some of the time is spent pushing papers or looking busy, since they don't leave before the boss does !

Just have a look in any eikaiwa, quite often the staff are just doing busy work, or chatting, or folding papers or brochures.

They should work a true 40-hour workweek. 40 hours of efficient, hard work. No paper pushing. You finish the job within the allotted time or you are not efficient, simple !

[Glenski]

[Brooks]

I remember talking to an exchange student from Germany and she found some of my students weird, since they said their hobby was sleeping while she said travel and tennis.
And I could understand what she meant.
She came all the way to Japan and she just wanted to talk to people, but they just put her off.
I wish many of my students had hobbies but their clubs can take up all their free time, or they could go to juku 5,6, 7 days a week and have no energy left to do anything else.

I would say the writer was talking about Tokyo.
But Tokyo is just a part of Japan.
Tokyo is basically a city of dreams, like New York, where people come to make money. But some people give up and are disillusioned.
A lot of people escape here, whether through drink, drugs, hookers, manga, etc.
And if you lived life like a salaryman where you are busy, always running
around, escape seems understandable.
People come to Tokyo from all over Japan. But not everybody can hack it.
I know people from Kyoto and Shikoku who are sick of life in Tokyo, and they are already thinking of their exit plan.

My wife has a student from Okinawa, and she had bad culture shock from living in Kanto. Many people from Okinawa come to make money but get sick of Tokyo so they go back.

I myself work six days a week, and I have a wife to support. I have more bills than when I was single, and I worry about money and I think of how to cut back on expenses.
But if I was in the US I think I would have the same worries.

[Sherri]

I think most foreigners, especially in their first few years don't feel the suffocation. I know that I did not. It didn't really close around me until I had kids. I had to interact with the neighbors, the other moms. There was a very strong feeling that I got from them to do things the Japanese way. For example even though we had a perfectly nice back yard with grass, if I let my child play out there barefoot in the summer, my neighbor would make pointed comments. I could NEVER consider letting my kids go barefoot in the grass at the local park. There are so many rules. I brought my son out for a walk in his stroller when he was just 2 weeks old, but I was told off by almost every woman I passed because they think that only 1 month old babies should be able to go outside. Small examples, but they add up, add to stress and compound.

Now that we live in the US (it's been one year this month) and I feel like a big weight has been lifted. Of course there are rules for behaviour in the US, but it seems that they are more flexible and people are more live and let live. In Japan people will be like that to a non-Japanese, but once you are there for the long term, get married, have kids, the expectations change and you have to conform if you want to fit in (and want your kids to fit in). My husband who used to make the rush hour commute in Tokyo is so relaxed, his health improved. He doesn't have to take meds for high blood pressure anymore. In his words, he feels like he "can breathe again."

People here don't have so much money, but they have more freedom, free time and a relaxed attitude. No one ever tells me that I have my kids dressed in the wrong clothes or that I have packed the wrong kind of lunch and they can run around in their barefeet all they want!

I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. It all rings very true. I sometimes wonder how much the Japanese education system has to do with all of this and how glad I am that my kids are not going to go through with it.

Regards
Sherri

[guest of Japan]

This thread has been very pleasurable to read.

I've come to find Japan to be pretty suffocating. Some of it is employer and work related other aspects come from just being in the society. I feel surrounded by envious materialistic dead people. The faces of people give me sadness. How many people do you see smiling everyday? Even having a good time at a party is filled with roles of responsibility and social etiquette. I used to appreciate the sensitivity Japanese showed to others, but now it grates on my nerves. It grates on me because it isn't about people being thoughful to others. It about not getting people to think that you're not thoughtful.

Certainly as foreigners we're are given a much wider birth in our goings on, but after marriage we do get pulled in much more deeply. When this is contrasted against the ever increasing view of reality in which we are to be forever limited in our opportunities and permanently placed on a periferal edge of society then it can become deeply suffocating. The damned of you do--damned if you don't feeling is hard to shake.

As for eikaiwa conversations, I always found that they got better once the students felt secure enough to communicate more fully. The lives of most folk here me be boring and stifling, but just like people all over the world they have hopes, fears, dreams, frustrations and fields of expertise they love to discuss if they are just made to believe that you want to hear the deeper aspects of their lives. If they are still resistent then get them to talk about food, kanji characters, stupid TV shows and driving costs.

[Sweetsee]

I do not feel the suffocation but I definitely feel that people around me are suffocating or are going to. I have been teaching at the same high school for 4 years and can think of one student who became interested in English, went to Australia before and after graduating and now goes to university there. I feel she escaped suffocation. I saw here recently and she is really genki. I am so happy for her, but 'one student'?

I meet the students' parents and while some appear to be interested in the future of their children, I can't help but think of how incredibly boring their lives must turnout. I look at the report cards and can't help but think that theses kids do nothing but watch television. The teacher is an accomplice in this affair when he points out that the kid is doing all-right when most of the marks are around or well below 60%, that was failing where I'm from. Not only that but some marks are a stitch over 30 and it's like, ho-hum.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if people have no aspirations than they won't suffocate. Like a previous poster said, they don't know a different life. I think it's very sad and conspiratorial. Like, our life is a dud so yours should be, too. Sadly enough, I also feel like an accomplice while I'm sitting there, like today in the parent/teacher conference.

More to the point, I have been here a long time and have never felt "suffocated", my nature prohibits it. I have too much energy, too out-going, love life too much, continue to enjoy the wonderment of life on a daily basis through love, nature, friends, sport, family and self.

This is a nice thread and I enjoyed reading everyone's posts.


Enjoy,
s