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blondie10
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 40
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 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Not
Last edited by blondie10 on Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregor wrote: |
| I'll never understand this formal education thing. An experienced teacher with minimal requirements and some strong references beats the hell out of a master's degree any day, in my opinion. |
Gregor, haven't we had this discussion before, when I was trying to convince you that an experienced teacher could be just as viable as one with no experience, but holding *qualifications*??? I guess you've changed your mind since then!
As Denise and some others pointed out, just because someone has taken the time and expended the effort to earn an MA, this doesn't necessarily mean that they are ill-equipped to deal with the pragmatics of teaching ESL/EFL.
You've made a very general statement, one that is true about half the time (I presume). You've also neglected to give us your thoughts on a teacher who is both a degree holder and experienced...  |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think I have utter disrespect not for the teachers but for the students. In my mind no intelligent person would ever take a language course. An intelligent person would never waste his/her money, time and energy sitting in some boring class when language is all around and all one has to do is access it through TV, Internet, books, magazines, etc.. All one has to do is find someone to speak the language with. This is as close as one should come to a language class.
I think I have disrespect for the EFL/ESL industry as a whole precisely because it is based on this fundamental stupidity of the client and no one is more clueless and stupid than the language student.
I have profound disrespect especially for advanced speakers of English who still feel they need to attend class and "improve" their English even though they are more or less fluent and perfectly functional in any environment. They still yearn for more structure, so I teach them the future past perfect continuous passive active in the third person subjunctive. It gives them a warm fussy as they bask in the false glow of knowledge that they are learning something.
My first question to these morons is always "Exactly what do you hope to take form this class?" to which they always have some vague and stupid response such as "I want to improve my English". To my next question "What does that mean to you?" the response is a look as if they had just fallen on their heads riding their bikes to class. Usually my final sentence to them is "Congratulations on money, time and energy well spent since you took virtually nothing from this class; and even if you did, you certainly didn't need my help". BONEHEADS!!! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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That is about as far as one can get from the reality where I teach, in Mexico.
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| All one has to do is find someone to speak the language with |
...in particular. Might work well in Canada, but not in Mexico. Imagine 100,000,000 Mexicans clamouring to go and practice their English with every tourist that pops in and out. A Mexican would take your idealistic suggestion and call you an arrogant pendejo for it. If they had the time of course, since between a 12 hour workday and family, they probably couldn't afford to stop to listen to your armchair quarterbacking.
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| Exactly what do you hope to take form this class?" to which they always have some vague and stupid response such as "I want to improve my English". To my next question "What does that mean to you?" the response is a look as if they had just fallen on their heads riding their bikes to class. |
Not here. Having English language abilities in Mexico is often the difference between a raise and a pink slip at work. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Again Guy, as I have said many times before, one doesn't need a class to learn another language especially when one is working 12 hours a day as you suggested.
But hey Guy, did I touch a nerve? I thought you knew by now that that's my job.  |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, no nerves hath been touched. You just need a foil...
It's simply not as easy you say...and, there are a lot of people out here TEFLing in the way you'd like to see...encouraging students to go out and learn on their own and to use tools like the net and magazines. And by gar, some TEFL programs are even training people to think like that too. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
Nope, no nerves hath been touched. You just need a foil...
It's simply not as easy you say...and, there are a lot of people out here TEFLing in the way you'd like to see...encouraging students to go out and learn on their own and to use tools like the net and magazines. And by gar, some TEFL programs are even training people to think like that too. |
WELL, BY GAR I've been teaching for more than a decade and I've rarely seen teachers who put the entire responsibility of learning a language squarely on students shoulders. And besides, students want easy answers and teaches want easy questions. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been teaching for more than a decade and I've rarely seen teachers who put the entire responsibility of learning a language squarely on students shoulders. |
...and I'll bet you walked 3 km every day in the snow to get to work...uphill both ways.
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| students want easy answers and teaches want easy questions. |
Baloney.
In an ideal world, no one needs a class to learn a language, or how to ski, or design a webpage. Neither of us lives in that ideal world. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've been teaching for more than a decade and I've rarely seen teachers who put the entire responsibility of learning a language squarely on students shoulders. |
...and I'll bet you walked 3 km every day in the snow to get to work...uphill both ways.
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| students want easy answers and teaches want easy questions. |
Baloney.
In an ideal world, no one needs a class to learn a language, or how to ski, or design a webpage. Neither of us lives in that ideal world. |
There are many things people can learn without taking a single class, for example photography, music or even English lit, which I spent years studying. Did I need to sit in some class and listen to some professor go on and on in a half comprehensible manner? NO! The library was right across the street. The only reason I was in class was because I needed that peace of paper that validated my place in the world. This is the real world not ideal.
The ideology of taking a class for this and that is a classically capitalist one designed to benefit the service provider. What better way to make money than by convincing people that they always need help even for scratching their as*ses.
Baloney, you say? I say bulls*it. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, many people can do that. Not as many as you think though...if you are gifted enough to be a good self-teacher, then good on you. I'd wish the same for everyone, but that isn't the real world.
Say, maybe I could start up a course here titled "Learn to Teach Yourself". Irony sells... |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
Yes, many people can do that. Not as many as you think though...if you are gifted enough to be a good self-teacher, then good on you. I'd wish the same for everyone, but that isn't the real world.
Say, maybe I could start up a course here titled "Learn to Teach Yourself". Irony sells... |
I don't think that's irony. In fact, teaching students to become their own teachers is my main task in class.
I believe anyone with average intelligence can learn whatever he/she wants adequately if not perfectly.
Of course, if going to class to learn English really worked, there wouldn't be so many students who can barely put two words together. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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What's wrong with me?? I'm actually (somewhat) agreeing with decon on this one!!
My goal is to get the students to a point where they learn how to study on their own, then they only need the class/teacher to clarify elements that they absolutely cannot get on their own. Lord knows no one ever taught me Japanese, Chinese, or Arabic, but by golly, I learned enough to get by.
And the number of students who take NO INITIATIVE WHATSOEVER outside of class, then expect ME to magically improve their English skills, and blame me when they DON'T improve...those are the worst.
Trouble is, most students don't realize the importance of this until it's too late (when they finish our program and they're on their own in their uni classes). |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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I have to agree with constructor, philosophically, at least. The true goal should be to teach them to teach themselves.
That said, I find that most people don't want to take that level of responsibility or don't believe they can. I get lots of people that start courses and a significantly smaller number that finish. I could retain them longer by not requiring homework (in the case of adults) and just have feel-good conversation classes, but they won't really learn the language that way.
That's how my 1st-yr Russian class went many years ago. The teacher was brutal and demanding, 30 students started the year and 13 finished it. (I'm not brutal, myself)
Most people want to learn English in the same way that they want to win the lottery. They don't have the sustained desire to carry them through the several years required to truly learn a language.
In short, you're both right. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
| What's wrong with me?? I'm actually (somewhat) agreeing with decon on this one!! |
Listen, don't discourage yourself! You're coming along famously! 
The point is this: When I walk into class I let everyone know that I am not a teacher, only a simple guide. I can show you many skills and strategies that you can use to learn English well rather than formulaically: In situation A you say B, and in situation C you say D. To me that's bulls*it! I will not play grammar games; I will not tell you the meaning of any word; you will never use a dictionary in my class. We will read, listen and speak, and through all that maze I will help you navigate. You shall never speak out of context in my class! I will not give you answers; you will have to discover them yourself!! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I will not play grammar games; I will not tell you the meaning of any word; you will never use a dictionary in my class. We will read, listen and speak, and through all that maze I will help you navigate. You shall never speak out of context in my class! I will not give you answers; you will have to discover them yourself!! |
Precisely what we're doing round here, my friend....nothing spoon fed. |
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