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Like Native Like Speakers Like need Like English eh!
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildchild wrote:
I am trying to show that languages and "enunciation" change with time. Normally, language change is normal, it happens, to everyone, even the "proper" folks. Quite a few century ago, someone surely said something very similar about think to what you have said above about gonna. For example, those who said tonga would say that:

Think appears to simply be the result of poor enunciation on the part of people who were less educated and/or lower on the economic ladder - well, that and people simply talking faster than their mouths are capable of properly enunciating the words. Shocked

Chancellor says:
Quote:
Besides, on what planet is the source of a word relevant to how one pronounces the word in the context of this thread?

Dude, see the door, you're fired Laughing How? a lot. Why? two lots. Would any one of my more articulate colleagues care to help? Embarassed
Kind of funny that you should ask that, given that you appealed to source yourself. Shocked
Quote:
I think it came along much earlier than that - at least as far back as the 19th century.
But you were trying to use a protoindoeuropean word to show changes in enunciation (which I think you're confusing with pronunciation), not an English word. Most of us here know that "gonna" is a poorly-enunciated version of "going to," whereas your example is part of the etymology of the English word "think." If you want to try to claim that enunciation is irrelevant (which really is what you're saying here), then do it with variants of the same word in the same language instead of trying to go back to a theoretical protoindoeuropean langauge.
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wildchild



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chancellor says:
Quote:
But you were trying to use a protoindoeuropean word to show changes in enunciation (which I think you're confusing with pronunciation), not an English word.

The PIE word became your English one. Your right, I am confused by enunciation v. pronunciation. Care to clarify?

Chancellor says:
Quote:
Most of us here know that "gonna" is a poorly-enunciated version of "going to,"

and going to is a "poorly-enunciated" version of its predecessor. So you see, according to your philosophy, we're all speaking a f*cked up form of OE. I don't care to make value judgments about the enunciation of others, we all enunciate in different ways, but to claim that one way is proper, superior, correct or better is quite chauvinist and ignorant. Um, as I have said before in this thread, all they need to do is (the folks who say gonna) is gain the loyalty and control of the military; then guess who is gonna decide which enunciation is the correct one. Twisted Evil But don't worry, Chancellor, after the revolution, I won't denounce you. Shocked

Quote:
If you want to try to claim that enunciation is irrelevant (which really is what you're saying here)


Yeah, I think I may have once convinced myself that enunciation is irrelevant, but then I quickly realised that folks might have trouble to understand me if I get too creative Shocked Also, "bad" enunciation may not get me invited to tea at chez Chancellor, so I'll take a class in "proper" English, that way I can please your ears over a biscuit. Laughing
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JZer wrote:
Quote:
I am trying to show that languages and "enunciation" change with time. Normally, language change is normal, it happens, to everyone, even the "proper" folks. Quite a few century ago, someone surely said something very similar about think to what you have said above about gonna. For example, those who said tonga would say that:


Agreed, Chancellor does not seem to be the brightest guy on the block.
Yes, well, if your standard of brightness is based on blindly following the latest linguistic theories and fanatically holding onto what amounts to linguistic relativism, you're right.
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we all enunciate in different ways, but to claim that one way is proper, superior, correct or better is quite chauvinist and ignorant.


I am really curious what Chancellor is using to justify that one enunciation is better than another.
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philyyy



Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Wroclaw

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like is only used by the more unintelligent members of society. If I met someone who was a "liker", I'd have grave doubts that I could be ars"" with them.
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AllOne



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

like, i like dunno like the word i like hear here is 'yeah' and 'yeah?' and when I like heard all these like school teachers yeah like using yeah i like felt like yeahlling
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Twelvetongue



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm a Californian and as a teaching assistant I kept on pronouncing "since" as "sense", utterly confusing the older teacher. I claim to abhor Valspeak, but low and behold, I have a Californian accent. It was a classic case of Jeff Spiccoli and Mr. Hand. Laughing
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SueH



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh shet, I thought revolving vowels were going the other way!
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Aramas



Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 874
Location: Slightly left of Centre

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwis dispense with vowels altogether. They make bad pns, stick pns in things , cook in frying pns and write with ball-point pns. They also have sx, sometimes leaving their sx on and sometimes sx times in a row, but too much of it sx.

They're also quite sensitive about it, and are prone to saying things like "Not pn, pn! Are you df?"

It's a very economical and versatile approach.
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sheeba



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem with pronunciation differences , slang and so on but there is one term that really gets to me ' innit'

The other day I met a Chinese guy in the gym.Spoke the best language that I have ever heard since I came to China.He had a London accent but for some reason at the end of EVERY sentence he would utter 'innit'

I haven't been in the UK properly for a few years but surely the youth aren't going around still doing Ali G impressions? That's just soooo sad !
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Mavis the Fat Fairy



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

philyyy wrote:
Like is only used by the more unintelligent members of society. If I met someone who was a "liker", I'd have grave doubts that I could be ars"" with them.


Not always true - my ex is a surgeon and one of the most intellegent people i know, yet he says 'like' almost every other word! Possibly one of the reasons we split up... there are some things you just can't live with Wink

Quote:
I haven't been in the UK properly for a few years but surely the youth aren't going around still doing Ali G impressions? That's just soooo sad !


Sad but true I'm afraid. Sad


Quote:
They also have sx, sometimes leaving their sx on and sometimes sx times in a row, but too much of it sx.


that reminded me of when I went out for a meal in Australia with some friends. The kiwi waitress showed us to the table and then asked us 'do you want sex?' We all stared at her blankly, a bit stunned. It took a few repeats and waving of place mats by her before we understood she'd meant 'do you want six?' )ie places. Gosh, how we laughed...
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Gregor



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "like" phenomenon is indeed annoying. I seriously doubt that it will ever - EVER - enter "standard" English, as I see it as a stammer of speech, much like saying "um" (in Latin American Spanish, "este", in Chinese...I can't remember, but there is a word). I also used to hear "pues" a lot (substitute "well" in English, as in, "What do you think of Club America?"
"Well/pues, they could use some work this year..."

But it's funny to read all these old fogey posts about the decline of the language and educational standards and so on. Socrates used to write about the youth of HIS day, and the decline of educational standards back THEN.

There's nothing you can do about the march of time, especially in an unregulated language like English. Like it or not, "gonna" (even thus spelled) will likely become a proper word one day, as will "dunno" for "don't know." Hell, y'all, contractions were probably cursed at one point, as well, don't you reckon?
What I hate VERY MUCH is the fact that "nuclear" can be correctly pronounced, according to some dictionaries these days, as "nuculer" (thank Ronald Reagan and both George Bushes for that).

My pet peeve in modern speech, which I first noticed in 1992 Australia, was a rising tone after every flippin' sentence? It makes everything sound like a question? And for a long time, I thought I was meant to answer, but didn't really understand what the question was?
Surely, most of you have encountered that by now. I won't even do it as a joke. Even JOKING about it pisses me off.
Same with "like" for that matter.
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furiousmilksheikali



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregor wrote:
My pet peeve in modern speech, which I first noticed in 1992 Australia, was a rising tone after every flippin' sentence? It makes everything sound like a question? And for a long time, I thought I was meant to answer, but didn't really understand what the question was?


Not only do a lot of Australians tend to use this rising intonation at the end of sentences but so do a lot of people who teach TEFL. I think it develops as an unconscious continual questioning of the student about whether they understand which eventually becomes an habitual part of that person's speech.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
not an English word. Most of us here know that "gonna" is a poorly-enunciated version of "going to,"
No, I believe that you and Sally are the only ones reading this thread who hold such a quaint idea.

'gonna' is a the orthographic representation of the standard pronunciation when the verb is used as a semi-modal in American English. Go to a corpus of American conversations, do a search and listen.
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sheeba



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
not an English word. Most of us here know that "gonna" is a poorly-enunciated version of "going to,"


Jeesh. I didn't notice that idiotic quote ! Must be British. My fellow Brits can be embarrassingly naive sometimes.Many claim that from an elocution standpoint, that modern speech is becoming increasingly slovenly.There is in fact, no evidence to suggest that the degree of obscuration and elision, is markedly greater now than it has been for centuries .
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